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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 3799405" data-attributes="member: 2525">It's not a hide check however.  I am referring to the rules for when an encounter starts, and it is based on a spot check (and listen check where appropriate).  Hide doesn't come into play.They have a higher spot check I assume.  Not sure what those comparisons are relevant.  Everyone in this thread has been arguing "it's gotta be in the rules or else it doesn't exist".If seeing the meatball is an encounter, then yes.  The rule regards encounters.There is a reason archers require good sight.  Indeed, according to the rules, they need to make a spot check against a creature that far away, and if they fail then they cannot target that specific creature.After arguing against the spot penalty for virtually all uses, you now would apply a x2 magnification bonus to the spot penalty? For what purpose? Your archer can already see 2400 feet without any problem apparently in your game, so what's the purpose of the spy glass?None of that seems to match the earlier interpretation of not needing to make a spot check unless something is hiding.Not all uses of spot are opposed by a hide check, and the encounter rules specifically are not opposed by a hide check unless someone is trying to hide.  You still use the spot encounter rules however.Seriously, it's time to re-read the spot rule, and the encounter rule in the DMG.  It's NOT just about opposed spot vs. hide checks.  Sometimes it's about opposed spot checks, and sometimes it's just a set DC based on the circumstances, and sometimes it's against disguise, etc...Well, I hate to say it, but that is a house rule.  The rules are pretty clear on this subject.  If the parties are at a decent distance from each other, each side makes a spot check (or listen check where appropriate, all modified by the distance rules in the spot skill description, see DMG page 22), and it isn't versus a hide check.  I quoted the rule above, and it's found in the encounters section of the DMG, and in the spot skill rules.Again, you are overly focused on hide checks concerning spot.  They two are sometimes related, but not always.  Which is why I quoted the "when an encounter begins" rule instead of the terrain rule.  There might be other modifiers for terrain, but there is a rule for when an encounter begins, and it often involves a spot check, and that spot check is not always going to be against a hide check.</blockquote>

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