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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 3802820" data-attributes="member: 2525">I disagree.  According to the rules, unless you are dealing with a hidden thing, any situation which would be deemed to be an encounter uses the spot, listen, and sight range rules to be able to see it, and the spot rules say that a human has a maximum range they can see (regardless of the size of the object, though you are free to offer a circumstance bonus for object size).  Given that a human has a maximum range they can see (as determined by their spot bonus), and if in your game a spy glass could extend that range (which I think is a reasonable thing to do with a x2 magnification effect), then in that same game I would extend the maximum range of darkvision using a spy glass.  The human hard-line limit (as rated by spot checks) should not get an exception using a spyglass that the darkvision hard-limit (as rated by the race of the creature in question) doesn't get, because darkvision otherwise functions just like normal vision.  That's the argument.  You can disagree with it, but it's not a specious comparison.  It's one of two competing rationale interpretations of the rules.In my opinion, there is no purpose to the clause about starting an encounter with spot checks, and things not being hidden but still sometimes calling for a spot check, if it is only about being stealthy.  And if you combine it with the DMG rules that I quoted above for when an encounter starts, it becomes even more clear to me that the spot skill is to be used to start encounters even when nobody is trying to be stealthy or hide.  They spell out the three scenarios, and they can involve competing spot checks and not a hide check vs. a spot check.Your maximum range for sight is in the spot checks as well.  And I didn't leave anything out, I quoted it, and I repeated back all three factors.  It's just that listen didn't apply in the examples we were using, and sight ranges in the terrain is just an additional limitation, and not the only place where a maximum range is discussed (such as the spot rules).If it is for WHEN AN ENCOUNTER STARTS it makes some sense (and is the rules).  Most encounters are not involving seeing a big city in the distance, an airplane in the air, or the rings of Saturn.  Seeing a city in the distance is a role playing color aspect of the game usually, and doesn't require encounter rules.If seeing the city is part of an encounter, the rules call for a spot check.  Now I agree with you it's not logical, but then having the encounter start when you see the city isn't logical either.  In addition, you guys are trying to argue the logic of a spy glass and darkvision and seeing through glass as well.  Pick a friggen position already - either we use real world logic, in which case you cannot use a spyglass with darkvision at all because darkvision should have nothing to do with light, or we just use the rules and not logic, in which case you need a spot check to start an encounter with something distant.  If you want to combine logic and the rules, I am fine with that as well, but then quit being a strict constructionist on the rules when it comes to trying to figure out what x2 magnification does to a type of vision that normal extends 60'."Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it....Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups...When you decide that it is possible for either side to become aware of the other, use Spot checks, Listen checks, sight ranges, and so on to determine which of the three above cases"Spot is used to begin an encounter, even if one side is not hiding or obstructed.  I think it's pretty clear.  You disagree, and that's fair.  But I hope we can back down some of the "specious" claims.  You can disagree without that sort of stuff.Let me again also say that we have reached an impasse.  We have two competing rationale interpretations of the rules.  It's up to individual DMs to determine which interpretation they will go with.  Some people think it makes sense in the rules as written to allow a spyglass to extend the maximum range of Darkvision by x2, and others do not.  Discussing these same points further will only result in more repetition, and if trends hold it will also result in an increasingly aggressive stance by folks trying to "win" an argument that cannot be won.</blockquote>

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