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Message: <blockquote data-quote="chriton227" data-source="post: 3811170" data-attributes="member: 33263">Here is where this interpretation of the rules breaks down for me.  Take the following situation:Colossal Red Dragon is circling a keep blasting it with its fire breath every chance it gets.  The keep is in a clear area.  Standing 2000' away is a L20 wizard with Alertness, Skill Focus(Spot), max ranks in spot (11 due to cross-class), and a +3 wisdom.  That would be a +19 spot, which is just about as good as you could reasonably expect from a pure class wizard.  If I understand your interpretation of the rules, since we are not in an encounter, at that distance it should be easy for the wizard to see the dragon attacking the keep.  That makes sense to me, it is a flame-spitting creature the size of a medium commercial jet airplane less than half a mile away.The wizard player decides that he needs to distract the dragon and save the keep, and tries to cast his prepared Enlarged Ice Storm (range is 800' + 80'/caster level, or 2400').  Since we are now in an encounter, the wizard needs to make a spot check at a -200 penalty for distance.  Even with his +19 spot, the DM would have to give him a +161 circumstance bonus to be able to see the dragon that he could already see on a natural 20 (by the spot rules there are no bonuses or penalties for size, those are only in the hide rules, and the dragon isn't hiding).  Had he been using an Enlarged Acid Arrow, he would have had the same spell range, but would need to make an attack roll at no range penalty.  If I were the GM in this situation and told the player to make a spot check when they declared they wanted to cast the spell, then told them they suddenly couldn't see the dragon, I would expect to be on the receiving end of a lot of yelling and the proud GM of a game looking for a replacement player.  I would also feel the need to call for spot checks all the time.  Hasted fighter with a move of 60' wants to charge an orc shaman standing 120' away casting a summon monster spell?  He would have to make a spot check (I hope he can make a DC12).  4th level sorcerer casting Acid Arrow?  It doesn't matter that his range on the spell is 560', he would be lucky to have a +15 spot assuming he spent both feats, 12 skill points, and put an 18 in Wisdom, which would limit him to effectively 250' reliable range on the spell (taking 10 on spot, it would take 20 rounds to take 20).  In fact, at 20th level the sorcerer still would have trouble seeing far enough to take advantage of the range of a 3rd caster level wand of Acid Arrow.  That interpretation of the spot rules may be debatably correct (I am not saying it is, but that it is debatable), but I would never enforce that interpretation on my players, nor would I play in a game where that interpretation was enforced.  If that works well for your group, more power to you, that just means that your group's priorities and preferences are different than mine.  For my group, requiring spot checks only for seeing creatures that are hiding or concealed, or for noticing fine details (I have seen plenty of "Spot DC 20 to notice this detail" in published material) is both more realistic and more fun.I personally feel that your position is presenting a false dichotomy, either you have to make spot checks for everything, or everything is visible at any distance.   My viewpoint is that there is a middle ground.  It requires the DM to use good judgement, but it has worked so far for me.  In the case of the red dragon attacking the keep, I might call for a spot check and based on the result, give a varying level of information.  A DC 5 would easily see that there is a creature attacking the keep.  A 15 would identify the creature as a red dragon (it's a distinctive creature, assuming the character would recognize one when he saw one).  It might be a DC 35 or 40 to identify the dragon as Pyroflex, the dragon plaguing the area that the party has encountered before who has a distinctive patterning on his wings.  A DC 60 might catch a glint off the amulet of natural armor that the dragon is wearing, although I'd only tell the player that the catch a glint from something around its neck.  In this way there is value to the spot skill, but it also passes my internal "does this make sense" check.</blockquote>

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