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<blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 3812603" data-attributes="member: 2525">Not my fault they didn't define what x2 magnification does.&nbsp; Heck, even your opinion is contrary to the majority of people here (most seem to think it increases the size category of objects seen by one size, which decreases the DC and hence extends the maximum range for normal vision but would have no impact on darkvision).If there is anything we know for certain about this issue, it's that it isn't quite simple.False.&nbsp; There is a maximum range for normal vision.&nbsp; The maximum size modifier in the rules has a set DC modifier to it.&nbsp; Which means all creatures (ALL of them) have a maximum range for vision.&nbsp; There is no &quot;infinite vision&quot; for starting an encounter, unless you have an infinite spot check. If you cannot see something for distance, then your statement of &quot;You can effectively see up to an infinite distance&quot; is false.But there is.&nbsp; It's right there in the spot rules.&nbsp; What is not making sense with that? The human with a +0 bonus to spot looking at a large sized object in plain sight can see that object at 200 feet if they roll a 20.&nbsp; But, if that thing is at 210 feet next turn, the human cannot see it (unless the DM decides to grant some sort of spot modifier...but such modifiers can only do so much, and at some point even those won't help).I understand what you are saying, I simply disagree.&nbsp; There is a difference.But really, we are going in circles.&nbsp; You are retreading ground others have already tread in this very thread several times.&nbsp; What is the point?&nbsp; We obviously simply disagree.&nbsp; Why not leave it at that?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mistwell, post: 3812603, member: 2525"] Not my fault they didn't define what x2 magnification does. Heck, even your opinion is contrary to the majority of people here (most seem to think it increases the size category of objects seen by one size, which decreases the DC and hence extends the maximum range for normal vision but would have no impact on darkvision). If there is anything we know for certain about this issue, it's that it isn't quite simple. False. There is a maximum range for normal vision. The maximum size modifier in the rules has a set DC modifier to it. Which means all creatures (ALL of them) have a maximum range for vision. There is no "infinite vision" for starting an encounter, unless you have an infinite spot check. If you cannot see something for distance, then your statement of "You can effectively see up to an infinite distance" is false. But there is. It's right there in the spot rules. What is not making sense with that? The human with a +0 bonus to spot looking at a large sized object in plain sight can see that object at 200 feet if they roll a 20. But, if that thing is at 210 feet next turn, the human cannot see it (unless the DM decides to grant some sort of spot modifier...but such modifiers can only do so much, and at some point even those won't help). I understand what you are saying, I simply disagree. There is a difference. But really, we are going in circles. You are retreading ground others have already tread in this very thread several times. What is the point? We obviously simply disagree. Why not leave it at that? [/QUOTE]

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