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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 3821396" data-attributes="member: 2525">It's not that I don't acknowledge it, it's that it's not relevant to my position.  Who cares if one is variable and one is absolute? Why does it have any impact on the debate? x2 magnification shouldn't be dependent on whether or not you reached the maximum through a variable or fixed calculation.  It modifies the result, and not how you got to that result.  So if the modification you choose for your game is to double the range (regardless of whether that range was arrived at through a variable or fixed equation) then it should double the range for other versions of sight as well.It's not obscuring the issue, you simply disagree with my position and are pretending I have not responded to it.Here, I will break it down for you in easy bites:1) Darkvision and Normal Vision are treated the same as far as vision, except for color;2) Both darkvision and normal vision have a maximum range.  The method of computing that maximum range differs such that darkvision more often has a fixed maximum range while normal vision more often has a variable maximum range.  2a) Sometimes, darkvision has a variable maximum range if the spot check required results in a shorter distance than the fixed range of that darkvision.  For example, a Drow in the dark has a fixed range of 120' for darkvision, but if they roll a modified 10 on their spot check they can still only spot something 100' a way for an encounter.2b) Sometimes normal vision has a fixed range for the terrain type. For example, a human in sunlight with a +20 spot modifier usually has a variable range from 200 to 400 feet normal vision, but if they are in dense forest they still have a fixed maximum range (20 to 190 feet, depending on the 2d6×10 die roll the DM made before you made your spot check).Regardless, for any given situation both have a maximum range.  3) If in your game you interpret the x2 magnification effect of a spy glass to extend the maximum range you can see things by x2 (instead of increasing the size category of the thing seen by one category for spot checks, which is the other competing proposed method), then because darkvision and normal vision are treated the same except for color, you should also double the maximum range of darkvision when using a spy glass.That's the contention.  You might not agree with it, but I definitely am offering the reason why darkvision would be extended by a spy glass, and why it's related to normal vision maximum ranges through the "treated the same" rule for normal and darkvision.I sure wish people would get off the "if you don't agree with me you must be wrong or avoiding the question" as opposed to "if you don't agree with me perhaps this is just a case of two reasonable minds differing on the interpretation of the rules".  It's really not productive to continue to bash people for disagreeing with your interpretation.And as I predicted much earlier in this thread, the longer it goes on the more redundancy in the thread, and the more aggression there seems to be in the responses.  That's a real drag, and makes most people (including me) want to avoid this thread.To try and get things back on track I would ask those of you who have not expressed an opinion on the effects of a spy glass to detail what effect a spy glass would have in your game for normal vision.  If it's not "increases the size category by 1 for spot checks", nor "increases the maximum range for that check by x2", then what does it do in your game?</blockquote>

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