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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 3823553" data-attributes="member: 2525">Sorry bout that.I am still having trouble understanding how your system works.Spot DC to see large object/creature in plain site = 0, modified by distance.  Here are the distance modifiers:Colossal –4Gargantuan –2    Huge –1    Large 0    Medium +1Small +2Tiny +4Diminutive +8Fine +16So if there is a fine size creature at 100 feet, the DC to notice it is 16 (for size), and you have a -10 on the check (for distance), so effectively the DC is 26.  Which seems OK, though a bit tough.  Side Note - Personally I think the DC for a Colossal creature on the other side of the scale isn't a good one.  It should be easier than an effective DC of 6 to see a Colossal creature at 100 feet - and shifting the chart to center on Medium would make it an effective DC of 2, which makes more sense to me. Equivalently the effective DC to see a fine creature at 100 feet would then also be lower at 18, which also seems fine.  Therefore I would probably shift things so a medium creature is a 0 dc, not a large one, but that is just me.Back to the spy glass.  Using your system, and the current rules without the houserule I just mentioned, the DC to see a fine sized creature at 100 feet is 16, and the spot check is modified by -10 for distance.  Would your system instead make the modifier -5 using a spy glass, or would it make the DC 8 using the spy glass, or would it make the "effective" DC 13 (since a DC 16 with a -10 on the check is essentially the same as a DC 26)?If there is no encounter, then why does it matter? It's just role playing color, and totally in DM realm at that point.  Sort of like players saying "We travel from City X to City Y".  Unless you are stopped for an encounter of some sort, the DM generally just says "OK, you get there unharmed" rather than worrying about what the rules.  The rules generally deal with encounters.There is SOME terrain.  I think even in Limbo there is SOME terrain.  It might be a DM call, but it's probably equivalent to plains if it is flat.  Unless you think it is easier to see things within a city than it is in the middle of an empty flat area of plains.OK, so the terrain is "underground", which is essentially the Canyon entry under mountain.  Depending on how rocky it is, the maximum distance you can see will vary.What is he looking at? If it is a large object in plain sight, the DC is 0, modified by distance.  The furthest he could spot something would be rolling a natural 20, for a total of 30, which would allow that person to see a large object at 300 feet, unless the DM rolled horribly on the Terrain check (6d6x40 - which could in theory result in a maximum of 240-290 feet max, but realistically it's almost always going to be better than that in a city).Assuming he has no other ability or magic modifying his vision, 60 feet.Human: DC to spot a medium sized creature is 1, modified by distance.  Rolling a natural 20, result is 30, which means the human could at maximum see the guard at 290 feet.Dwarf: Again, assuming nothing is modifying their darkvision distance, and it's totally dark (I assume you meant that), then 60 feet.As for how I would modify those with a spy glass, if I were using the "double range" interpretation instead of the "alter size" interpretation, I would put the Human at max 580', and the Dwarf at max 120 feet, because you are supposed to treat normal vision and darkvision the same other than color.</blockquote>

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