darkvision vs. shadow ability

[evilbob]

Simply put: would a creature with darkvision effectively negate the total concealment given to a creature with a special/supernatural ability to hide in the shadows (for example, a shadow mastiff)?

Normally darkvision would negate the advantage of simply being in a shadowy and/or dark area, but I was wondering if that made sense for the supernatural ability of a creature to hide in the shadows?

 

[mikebr99]

Darkvision is not removing the shadows with respect to the Shadow Mastiff... so they are still there to power it's Shadow Blend ability.

Mike

 

[evilbob]

Darkvision indeed does not remove shadows, but it does negate the concealment effect normally attributed to darkness or "shadowy" illumination.

I do not believe darkvision would affect the supernatural ability of the mastiff to hide in shadows, but I wonder if it would effectively cancel out the concealment given to it by being in the shadows in the first place.

 

[mikebr99]

Darkvision indeed does not remove shadows, but it does negate the concealment effect normally attributed to darkness or "shadowy" illumination.

I do not believe darkvision would affect the supernatural ability of the mastiff to hide in shadows, but I wonder if it would effectively cancel out the concealment given to it by being in the shadows in the first place.

Well, darkvision does not allow you to see through magical darkness... and Shadow Blend is providing magical concealment. YMMV

Mike

 

[moritheil]

The benefit that shadow creatures derive is that of being "the same" as the surrounding shadows. Maybe, if you don't agree with the flavor of things as they are, you could keep the mechanics and state that it's hard for a creature with darkvision to see shadow creatures because they see right through them.

Mechanically, though, I must agree with Mike - darkvision is not intended to negate such supernatural defenses.

 

[evilbob]

Well, darkvision does not allow you to see through magical darkness... and Shadow Blend is providing magical concealment.

Mechanically, though, I must agree with Mike - darkvision is not intended to negate such supernatural defenses.

Ok, so you're saying that because the mastiff has a supernatural ability that is granting it the concealment, it would not be countered by the mundane darkvision. That makes sense, and does seem to fit the mechanic.

I will admit, however, that every time I read the ability description, it seems like the concealment comes only from the shadow/darkness, while the ability to have concealment in less than total darkness is the supernatural part of the ability. For reference:

Shadow Blend (Su)

In any condition of illumination other than full daylight, a shadow mastiff can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability. A daylight spell, however, will.

Maybe I'm just continuing to confuse myself and it is more obvious than I am letting it be, but I'm still not sure if that implies darkvision would help.


Perhaps one argument would be that if the mastiff were in the shadow of a tree on a bright sunny day, it would still have total concealment. Darkvision isn't helping one "see in the dark," since it is a bright and sunny day. The only thing making it hard to see the mastiff is the supernatural ability of the mastiff which makes it "blend" into the shadow. So in that respect, it would make sense that darkvision wouldn't help.

But on the other hand, the reason it is concealed is because it's in "darkness." Darkness is what is causing the concealment, whether it comes from a bit of a tree's shadow or pitch black bottom-of-a-cave darkness, and if you can see in the dark, shouldn't you be able to see the shadowy thing?

More ideas, counterpoints?