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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Felix" data-source="post: 3660423" data-attributes="member: 3929">This discussion began as a talk about the alignment of Harry Potter characters. Cameron suggests that Voldemort is CE because he kills people who displease him. I point out that Darth Vader, someone I thought clearly to be Lawful Evil, kills people who displease him all the time. To my suprise, Cameron retorts that Vader is not Lawful.Here's the conversation to this point:CameronHe (Lord Voldemort) is practically classic CE, to be honest, killing people that displease him, doing what he likes without regard for Good or Evil, etc.Felix    "He's as clumsy as he is stupid."     ...     "Ah, Lord Vader, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed and we're preparing to---aaagh!"     "You have failed me for the last time Admiral."     "Apology accepted, Captain Needa."     "If this is a Conuslar's ship then where is the Ambassador?"     "He's no good to me dead."     "He will not be permanently damaged."     ...     "What if he doesn't survive? He's worth a lot to me."     "The empire will compensate you, if he dies."     "You do not know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master."     "We can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy!" Killing people that displease you is not monopolized by Chaotic Evil.CameronVader is Anakin, and Anakin was Chaotic as all heck. And a whinger to boot. He is only kept in line by Palpatine's Dark Side mastery. Hence the "You do not know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master." quote.FelixThere was a reason all those quotes were from the first Star Wars movies. Lord Darth Vader was Lawful, and no amount of hack George "Morality Revising Greedo-Shoots-First" Lucas should change that.CameronEven before the second trilogy came out, Vader was portrayed as having violated his Jedi creed, and that it was his impatience and impetuousness that got him nailed by Palpy. He was basically a Chaotic person in a Lawful tradition and that was why he fell (it was less a Good vs Evil thing, more of a Law vs Chaos thing).FelixAnd betrayal is always and everywhere a Chaotic trait? So what have all those Baatezu been doing all this time schemeing and betraying each other for? Exactly what evidence from the first three movies are you thinking about here? Admiting the prequils, you allow that Ani was turned from Good to Evil, but can't accept a shift from Chaotic to Lawful? Uh, why?CameronImpatience and impetuousness are Chaotic traits, not betrayal. Betrayal without regret is Evil. Didn't Yoda remind Kenobi about it when they were discussing Luke's training? The last paragraph makes no sense. Please reiterate in a different manner.------I hope that catches you all up.To answer Cameron, you requested I clarify this paragraph:Admiting the prequils, you allow that Ani was turned from Good to Evil, but can't accept a shift from Chaotic to Lawful? Uh, why?I don't disagree that Anikin was Good or that his alignment was twisted to Evil by Palpatine. I also agree that he was capricious as a child and a young man. However, Darth Vader's actions in Star Wars Episodes IV to VI show, I believe, very lawful behavior. So if you allow that it is possible that Palpatine perverts Anikin from Good to Evil, would you not also allow the possibility that his alignment may also have changed to Lawful? Does this clarify my question?I used Darth Vader to show that killing subordinates may easily be done by Lawful Evil characters, so my point isn't concerned about what the Ani of Episodes I to III was like (disregarding the moral revisionist tendancies of George Lucas).So, folks: Darth Vader. The original trilogy. He's Evil. Is he Lawful?</blockquote>

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