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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cameron" data-source="post: 3661976" data-attributes="member: 52735">First off, let me say this:The OP indulged in selective C&P. That was not *all* I said in the first post. He selectively C&P to make his argument sound better.Now, on to the debate. The OP brought up demons and devils. Nice application of emotional demogaugery there. A bit transparent, but good try. As I said, that is not all I posted in my first post, and that bit of underhanded tactic lent the demons and devils argument far more creedence than it really has.My stance was that Vader was Chaotic because he could not conform to the lawful Jedi. He gave in to his emotions and it was his impetuousness and emotional rampages that made him fall. Random betrayals because he felt angry and needed to lash out is chaotic behaviour. That is what he did to Padme right at the end.Selfishness is not a trait of law or chaos. It is a trait of evil. Overthrowing tradition, emotional behaviour, etc., is chaotic.Just because Vader tolerated Palpy is not a reason to claim he is lawful. Remember that Orcs are Chaotic Evil, and they are described as following the "strongest rule" form of government (this form of government is also described as CE in the DMG). Vader wasn't in the position to challenge Palpy because Palpy was stronger than him or had control over him via the Dark Side (which was one of the quotes the OP listed). He itched to kick Palpy in the nuts, though, to take over, and he would have, except for the pesky power thing. That is how CE governmental bodies work as described by the DMG. That is also classic CE behaviour as described by the PHB.Just because someone used the Law occasionally is not reason to believe he *believes* in the Law, which is the true sign of lawful behaviour. Vader did not believe in the law, unless he is the law. Most of the Empire's troops were like that (Palleon and that Bakuran guy, Thanas?, were the exceptions, not the rule). They looted, murdered, enslaved, etc., at will across the galaxy, even though, I am sure, if you went and murdered someone, you'd be thrown in a room with 3 walls and bars for violating the law. That is unlawful behaviour.</blockquote>

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