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David Noonan on D&D Complexity
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<blockquote data-quote="Cor Azer" data-source="post: 3125538" data-attributes="member: 870"><p>Well, you'll note that the designers did move Hold Person from one save to a save every round because the first version could be seen as unfun. The other difference is that a lot fo those magical effects (well, and death, since it's not really a magical effect) can usually be easily removed by well-prepared players. It tends to be a bit harder to remove another player from a grapple (but I concede, not impossible).</p><p></p><p>The big difference I see between the two is the DCs generally required - yes, save-or-die spells are unfun, but at least the save DC are (usually) in the realm manageable by PCs. Grapple checks however, are quite often only used by creatures so big that their grapple checks (which are usually helped by Improved Grapple) are well beyond what the PCs can hope - so yes, they're rolling each round, but have no real hope of actually succeeding.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm only in partial agreement with this - high level fighters need magic items, yes, but that's mostly because D&D all but necessitates <em>all</em> high level characters needing magic items of one sort or another. I don't agree that fighters need any particular items at that level, especially not those that just mimic iconic spells like fly, teleport, and the like.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, the D&D 3.0/3.5 concept might... but the earlier editions of D&D didn't put so much focus on it, and there's no reason the next edition should too. Personally, I think the easier solution is to reduce their built-in spell-casting abilities and allow DMs to easily give them sorceror levels or the like. It's always easier to add stuff than remove it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's not an issue of D&D's complexity, that's a matter of options and campaign management for the DM - what books are going to be allowed. Just because there are hundreds of supplements out there does not mean they all should, need, or will be allowed. That said, I think the DMG needs to have more encouragement for DMs to say no, either beforehand so problems don't occur, or during play and telling a player "Ok, this just isn't working out." The DM does not need to know every system in existence in intricate detail - only those actually used in play.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't get that feeling at all, but then, I read it at face value. They were looking to find a way to use the really cool new miniatures for the black dragon and red dragon, which necessitated high level characters. But they also had the design constraint that average skilled players needed to be able to pick up these characters and be able to use them in about 5 minutes for at most an hour of play. That's a lot of info to digest in a really short amount of time (particularly for spellcasters).</p><p></p><p>Given all the options the designers and developers keep throwing out for them game (considering the number of supplements), I find it hard to conceive that they're trying to dumb down the game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Cor Azer, post: 3125538, member: 870"] Well, you'll note that the designers did move Hold Person from one save to a save every round because the first version could be seen as unfun. The other difference is that a lot fo those magical effects (well, and death, since it's not really a magical effect) can usually be easily removed by well-prepared players. It tends to be a bit harder to remove another player from a grapple (but I concede, not impossible). The big difference I see between the two is the DCs generally required - yes, save-or-die spells are unfun, but at least the save DC are (usually) in the realm manageable by PCs. Grapple checks however, are quite often only used by creatures so big that their grapple checks (which are usually helped by Improved Grapple) are well beyond what the PCs can hope - so yes, they're rolling each round, but have no real hope of actually succeeding. I'm only in partial agreement with this - high level fighters need magic items, yes, but that's mostly because D&D all but necessitates [i]all[/i] high level characters needing magic items of one sort or another. I don't agree that fighters need any particular items at that level, especially not those that just mimic iconic spells like fly, teleport, and the like. Well, the D&D 3.0/3.5 concept might... but the earlier editions of D&D didn't put so much focus on it, and there's no reason the next edition should too. Personally, I think the easier solution is to reduce their built-in spell-casting abilities and allow DMs to easily give them sorceror levels or the like. It's always easier to add stuff than remove it. That's not an issue of D&D's complexity, that's a matter of options and campaign management for the DM - what books are going to be allowed. Just because there are hundreds of supplements out there does not mean they all should, need, or will be allowed. That said, I think the DMG needs to have more encouragement for DMs to say no, either beforehand so problems don't occur, or during play and telling a player "Ok, this just isn't working out." The DM does not need to know every system in existence in intricate detail - only those actually used in play. I don't get that feeling at all, but then, I read it at face value. They were looking to find a way to use the really cool new miniatures for the black dragon and red dragon, which necessitated high level characters. But they also had the design constraint that average skilled players needed to be able to pick up these characters and be able to use them in about 5 minutes for at most an hour of play. That's a lot of info to digest in a really short amount of time (particularly for spellcasters). Given all the options the designers and developers keep throwing out for them game (considering the number of supplements), I find it hard to conceive that they're trying to dumb down the game. [/QUOTE]
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