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Dealing with agency and retcon (in semi sandbox)
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<blockquote data-quote="ZebraDruid" data-source="post: 9063784" data-attributes="member: 7041885"><p>(PF E2 although it hardly matters)</p><p></p><p>I've started DMing for a group of 4 close friends. I'm fairly new to it, but most have experience with TTRPG or at least CRPGs.</p><p></p><p>We did a goofy one off dungeon (it lasted a few sessions since we were all learning) to get a general grasp of the game. One character jumped into a deep dark hole and essentially died for 80% of the game. (He was fine with it but realized actions have consequences)</p><p></p><p>A month or so later we're starting a fresh new campaign that is basically a <strong>sandbox</strong> with an end goal that will eventually shape itself into the game based on their actions.</p><p></p><p>To not overwhelm them I locked them in a safe orderly large city (Almas) with the intent to give them some <strong>quests to help build up their characters personality, wealth, and level up</strong> a little, before I let them go all the way to Mwangi Expanse if they wanted to, and die to a tyrannosaur.</p><p></p><p><strong>It was going decently well,</strong> and we were shaping the world details we wanted to see. The exact map of towns, organizations, npcs etc. People were having fun, figuring out more in depth with how the game functions.</p><p></p><p>I gave them a quest, given to them by a noble to <strong>steal the body of his father from a family crypt.</strong> He lied and said he was resurrecting his father from his evil brothers clutches who just wanted the inheritance. The young noble was a necromancer whose family had a curse/pact with Asmodeus that basically bound them to him if they were ever resurrected. (A poorly worded deal with a contract devil that the dealer wanted his family lineage to be immortal.) The curse would break if no living members were alive who were still pact bound/resurrected. The younger brother wanted to force his entire family into the deal, and the older brother was trying to abide by his fathers wish to break the curse, without harming his brother and just letting him be.</p><p></p><p>The party consists of a:</p><p><strong>Good Sarenrae redeemer paladin</strong></p><p><strong>Evil Asmodeus Cleric</strong> (converted from norgerber)</p><p><strong>Neutral Wizard</strong></p><p>and <strong>Chaotic good Ranger</strong></p><p></p><p> The overall party story is a <strong>struggle between good and evil</strong> characters trying to convert each other. Naturally it's a bit chaotic.</p><p> </p><p>They went to the older brother and failed their diplomacy checks to gleam information, so they broke into the family crypt to steal the body, believing the younger brother had good intentions (he lied to them, they could have stolen information from the house and found wills etc, reported it to the guards, so on)</p><p></p><p>They brought the body to a graveyard late at night as instructed, and the evil cleric and the neutral wizard were curious about how exactly this resurrection ritual of theirs was going to go.<strong> The whole group was suspicious</strong> of the noble, and his intentions. The cleric tried to convince the group to stay out (because he was pretty sure something evil was about to transpire and didn't want the paladin interfering)</p><p></p><p>The <strong>paladin stayed outside,</strong> and at the time I <strong>couldn't figure out why</strong> (There wasn't even any diplo check to influence it and they knew this), but I figured <strong>he had his reasons</strong>. I <strong>didn't want to force him</strong> into anything he didn't want to do. So the necromancers performed the ritual, pact bound the father to Asmodeus through the contract, and once they exited the crypt, paid the group for their efforts, and went off into the night. (To then go to the older brothers home and murder his entire family, resurrecting the older brother and son to also be in the necromantic circle.)</p><p></p><p>The<strong> paladin was not happy</strong> about this, especially after finding out the family had been killed, went to his church, and the guard, and the lets call them 'magical FBI' as the group has coined them. And essentially<strong> ratted out the entire group</strong> to being complicit in the crime of grave robbing, necromancy, theft (the cleric and wizard robbed the home on the way out) and accomplices to murder.</p><p></p><p>I had <strong>intended</strong> the paladin to go in with the group and <strong>stop the necromancers</strong>, but he didn't think that was an option and I wasn't respecting his agency, and that his actions didn't matter. Where as it was actually the exact opposite. I respected his agency as a player so much, that I didn't make the very obvious suggestion that he should go investigate the crypt some shady people just took a body into and find out what they were up to. Thus, evil basically won, and the bad guys triumphed without a fight. The family could have been kept from harm, and he was more or less one of the people who could have stopped it.</p><p></p><p>Bare in mind. I let a player <strong>'jump into a dark pit to his death'</strong> in the last campaign. It was a joke we all laughed about ever since.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Now as a result, <strong>everyone is going to prison</strong> for various amounts of time (the cleric took part in the ritual and fully devoted himself to Asmodeus). (Also earlier in the campaign they had 'tracker spells' put on them to keep them in the city, so they basically can't hide without literally cutting off their hand, or finding some way to dispel it which just seems a bit convoluted and cheap as a level 2 party.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>I suppose the question is, how much should I be guiding my party, even though I have let them know ahead of time, and many times before, and given them examples and situations where they can do what they want. Do I in this situation say "No, you can't stay out here because it will mess up the story, now get inside and stop the ritual. <strong>Why even give them free will and choice at all? Is it really agency if I just direct the story to what 'they' want to have happen, even if it isn't actually their choice?</strong> How do I balance agency between good and evil characters motives and goals, especially if one of them refuses to fight back when it matters most?</p><p></p><p>I've noticed that if I make a suggestion, the player will often do it as if I'm telling them to do it, but other times they will ignore me entirely even if it's good advice, so I realize they have minds of their own, and also do take suggestions, but not always...So often, I just wait to <strong>"Yes, And..." "Yes, But..."</strong> them</p><p></p><p><em>'Yes, you can decide to wait outside and let an evil ritual be performed by suspicious people on a dead body in a graveyard at 1am, but they're going to go kill an innocent family afterwards if you don't stop them.'</em></p><p></p><p>Lastly,</p><p></p><p>-should we just<strong> retcon</strong> the ratting out of the group that has basically resulted in a TPK of sorts,</p><p>-do they roll with the <strong>prison time</strong>, (The cleric is effectively PK'd because he'll be in wizard prison for a decade)</p><p>-do we <strong>retcon the entire session</strong> so that they can 'do the good thing' and set a precedent that says : <strong>"Will anything I do matter this session? Not sure... cause it might get retconned...meh w/e I'll just do some dumb crap and we can retcon it later if so."</strong></p><p>-Remake new characters and <strong>learn from the experience.</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p>Things to consider:</p><p><strong>-No one is shy</strong>. I try to interrupt people to let others speak if they've been overshadowed for too long. (But usually people let others speak on their own) everyone has known each other for at least a year, (The wizard is the paladins brother, I've known the cleric for 9 years)</p><p><strong>-Everyone has a basic understanding of agency and character growth</strong></p><p><strong>-Everyone has experience in rpg style games</strong></p><p><strong>-Everyone has mutual respect for each other</strong></p><p><strong>-I asked OOC if anyone else wanted to go into the crypt</strong></p><p><strong>-We had a 4 hour discussion after session with open communication suggesting the above solutions</strong></p><p><strong>-I explained at the start there were at least 3 ways to complete the quest </strong>(that I could imagine at the time)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ZebraDruid, post: 9063784, member: 7041885"] (PF E2 although it hardly matters) I've started DMing for a group of 4 close friends. I'm fairly new to it, but most have experience with TTRPG or at least CRPGs. We did a goofy one off dungeon (it lasted a few sessions since we were all learning) to get a general grasp of the game. One character jumped into a deep dark hole and essentially died for 80% of the game. (He was fine with it but realized actions have consequences) A month or so later we're starting a fresh new campaign that is basically a [B]sandbox[/B] with an end goal that will eventually shape itself into the game based on their actions. To not overwhelm them I locked them in a safe orderly large city (Almas) with the intent to give them some [B]quests to help build up their characters personality, wealth, and level up[/B] a little, before I let them go all the way to Mwangi Expanse if they wanted to, and die to a tyrannosaur. [B]It was going decently well,[/B] and we were shaping the world details we wanted to see. The exact map of towns, organizations, npcs etc. People were having fun, figuring out more in depth with how the game functions. I gave them a quest, given to them by a noble to [B]steal the body of his father from a family crypt.[/B] He lied and said he was resurrecting his father from his evil brothers clutches who just wanted the inheritance. The young noble was a necromancer whose family had a curse/pact with Asmodeus that basically bound them to him if they were ever resurrected. (A poorly worded deal with a contract devil that the dealer wanted his family lineage to be immortal.) The curse would break if no living members were alive who were still pact bound/resurrected. The younger brother wanted to force his entire family into the deal, and the older brother was trying to abide by his fathers wish to break the curse, without harming his brother and just letting him be. The party consists of a: [B]Good Sarenrae redeemer paladin Evil Asmodeus Cleric[/B] (converted from norgerber) [B]Neutral Wizard[/B] and [B]Chaotic good Ranger[/B] The overall party story is a [B]struggle between good and evil[/B] characters trying to convert each other. Naturally it's a bit chaotic. They went to the older brother and failed their diplomacy checks to gleam information, so they broke into the family crypt to steal the body, believing the younger brother had good intentions (he lied to them, they could have stolen information from the house and found wills etc, reported it to the guards, so on) They brought the body to a graveyard late at night as instructed, and the evil cleric and the neutral wizard were curious about how exactly this resurrection ritual of theirs was going to go.[B] The whole group was suspicious[/B] of the noble, and his intentions. The cleric tried to convince the group to stay out (because he was pretty sure something evil was about to transpire and didn't want the paladin interfering) The [B]paladin stayed outside,[/B] and at the time I [B]couldn't figure out why[/B] (There wasn't even any diplo check to influence it and they knew this), but I figured [B]he had his reasons[/B]. I [B]didn't want to force him[/B] into anything he didn't want to do. So the necromancers performed the ritual, pact bound the father to Asmodeus through the contract, and once they exited the crypt, paid the group for their efforts, and went off into the night. (To then go to the older brothers home and murder his entire family, resurrecting the older brother and son to also be in the necromantic circle.) The[B] paladin was not happy[/B] about this, especially after finding out the family had been killed, went to his church, and the guard, and the lets call them 'magical FBI' as the group has coined them. And essentially[B] ratted out the entire group[/B] to being complicit in the crime of grave robbing, necromancy, theft (the cleric and wizard robbed the home on the way out) and accomplices to murder. I had [B]intended[/B] the paladin to go in with the group and [B]stop the necromancers[/B], but he didn't think that was an option and I wasn't respecting his agency, and that his actions didn't matter. Where as it was actually the exact opposite. I respected his agency as a player so much, that I didn't make the very obvious suggestion that he should go investigate the crypt some shady people just took a body into and find out what they were up to. Thus, evil basically won, and the bad guys triumphed without a fight. The family could have been kept from harm, and he was more or less one of the people who could have stopped it. Bare in mind. I let a player [B]'jump into a dark pit to his death'[/B] in the last campaign. It was a joke we all laughed about ever since. Now as a result, [B]everyone is going to prison[/B] for various amounts of time (the cleric took part in the ritual and fully devoted himself to Asmodeus). (Also earlier in the campaign they had 'tracker spells' put on them to keep them in the city, so they basically can't hide without literally cutting off their hand, or finding some way to dispel it which just seems a bit convoluted and cheap as a level 2 party.) I suppose the question is, how much should I be guiding my party, even though I have let them know ahead of time, and many times before, and given them examples and situations where they can do what they want. Do I in this situation say "No, you can't stay out here because it will mess up the story, now get inside and stop the ritual. [B]Why even give them free will and choice at all? Is it really agency if I just direct the story to what 'they' want to have happen, even if it isn't actually their choice?[/B] How do I balance agency between good and evil characters motives and goals, especially if one of them refuses to fight back when it matters most? I've noticed that if I make a suggestion, the player will often do it as if I'm telling them to do it, but other times they will ignore me entirely even if it's good advice, so I realize they have minds of their own, and also do take suggestions, but not always...So often, I just wait to [B]"Yes, And..." "Yes, But..."[/B] them [I]'Yes, you can decide to wait outside and let an evil ritual be performed by suspicious people on a dead body in a graveyard at 1am, but they're going to go kill an innocent family afterwards if you don't stop them.'[/I] Lastly, -should we just[B] retcon[/B] the ratting out of the group that has basically resulted in a TPK of sorts, -do they roll with the [B]prison time[/B], (The cleric is effectively PK'd because he'll be in wizard prison for a decade) -do we [B]retcon the entire session[/B] so that they can 'do the good thing' and set a precedent that says : [B]"Will anything I do matter this session? Not sure... cause it might get retconned...meh w/e I'll just do some dumb crap and we can retcon it later if so."[/B] -Remake new characters and [B]learn from the experience.[/B] Things to consider: [B]-No one is shy[/B]. I try to interrupt people to let others speak if they've been overshadowed for too long. (But usually people let others speak on their own) everyone has known each other for at least a year, (The wizard is the paladins brother, I've known the cleric for 9 years) [B]-Everyone has a basic understanding of agency and character growth -Everyone has experience in rpg style games -Everyone has mutual respect for each other -I asked OOC if anyone else wanted to go into the crypt -We had a 4 hour discussion after session with open communication suggesting the above solutions -I explained at the start there were at least 3 ways to complete the quest [/B](that I could imagine at the time) [/QUOTE]
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