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Dealing with agency and retcon (in semi sandbox)
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<blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 9063857" data-attributes="member: 86653"><p>I'll just add to and partially repeat what others have said...</p><p></p><p>Why not start with it being a game based on their actions? That's the beating heart of sandbox play. Player agency.</p><p></p><p>That cleric and paladin pair is going to be a problem. I'd suggest you make absolutely sure that the players are okay with PVP, because that's going to end up with PVP, likely far...far sooner than you expect.</p><p></p><p>It also seems inherently antagonistic. As mentioned, PVP should be expected with that set up. Generally you want the party to be a cohesive whole the vast majority of the time. When PCs are at each others' throats, that tends to bleed into the players as well.</p><p></p><p>Well, good paladin and incredibly suspicious circumstances.</p><p></p><p>That's good. You should never do that. Ever. The only thing the player gets to do is control their one character, you get the whole rest of the universe. Don't take the player's agency away from them.</p><p></p><p>Well, yeah. Paladin.</p><p></p><p>That's the thing about players having agency, their actions aren't up to you. It sounds like you're planning more of a linear story for them to follow. That's basically the opposite of sandbox play.</p><p></p><p>Well, if you had plans for what the characters would do and tried to enforce that plan in anyway, the player is right. You sticking to your pre-planned story precludes the players having agency. It's either, or...not both.</p><p></p><p>Things look obvious when you have all the info. Not so much if you have little to no info.</p><p></p><p>Except for the paladin who did nothing wrong and reported the crime. He should be rewarded. But the trouble is, you now have most of the group in prison, one PC free, and they're stuck in a town where the powerful NPCs can literally step in at any time and solve their problems. That's all around bad news.</p><p></p><p>Uh...why? Unless the PCs are explicitly evil there's no reason for something like that to happen. If that's you as the referee trying to enforce your limits on where the PCs can go...you need to rethink things.</p><p></p><p>Zero. You should be guiding them zero. Prep a whole lot of hooks and situations and prep absolutely zero story (as in no pre-defined beginning, middle, and end). There should be zero assumptions on your part about how the PCs act, what they do, or how they progress through a given scenario or hook. That's literally the point of sandbox play. The referee preps a lot and reacts to the players. You're following their lead.</p><p></p><p>Nope. That's the worst thing you can do.</p><p></p><p>You don't "direct" the story either way. There's no story. Something vaguely story-like emerges from 1) your prep, 2) the players' choices, and 3) you reacting to the players' choices.</p><p></p><p>You don't. You let keep hold of the notion of player agency being supreme and let go of wanting to dictate how they react to your "good vs evil" theme. One of the PCs refused to fight in the good vs evil battle. That's infinitely more interesting than yet another black and white morality play.</p><p></p><p>Well, don't offer suggestions. It's the referee's job to present problems and obstacles. It's the players' job to figure out how to overcome those problems and obstacles.</p><p></p><p>Don't do that. That's you forcing them to act how you want by giving them knowledge they wouldn't otherwise have. </p><p></p><p>No. Never retcon. Always move forward with what you have. "Yes, and..." what the players gave you.</p><p></p><p>That's one option, sure. Have the paladin player make a new character since he's the only one out of prison and advance the timeline to when they get out. Or go full Suicide Squad and have the city official now use the PCs as expendable resources to throw at problems.</p><p></p><p>Again, nope. Never retcon. Don't negate or deny what's happened. Nothing they do will matter if you retcon things to how "they should have happened" every time they make a choice you don't like. Always let the players' choices stand. No matter the results. Always bring in the logical consequences of those actions. If the players don't want to face the logical consequences of their character's actions, they'll learn to not do terrible stuff.</p><p></p><p>Nah. You can salvage this. It's not so bad.</p><p></p><p>That's going to be an issue. Siblings intentionally playing polar opposite characters knowing it's going to lead to conflict. That's a really bad sign.</p><p></p><p>That seems excessive.</p><p></p><p>Don't do that. It's not up to you how they resolve things. When you say things like this you give the impression these are the "right ways" to solve the situation. There shouldn't be a right way. The players can come up with whatever they can imagine. If you think it's reasonable, roll with it. But don't decide ahead of time what the solutions are and force them to guess the "right way" to resolve problems.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="overgeeked, post: 9063857, member: 86653"] I'll just add to and partially repeat what others have said... Why not start with it being a game based on their actions? That's the beating heart of sandbox play. Player agency. That cleric and paladin pair is going to be a problem. I'd suggest you make absolutely sure that the players are okay with PVP, because that's going to end up with PVP, likely far...far sooner than you expect. It also seems inherently antagonistic. As mentioned, PVP should be expected with that set up. Generally you want the party to be a cohesive whole the vast majority of the time. When PCs are at each others' throats, that tends to bleed into the players as well. Well, good paladin and incredibly suspicious circumstances. That's good. You should never do that. Ever. The only thing the player gets to do is control their one character, you get the whole rest of the universe. Don't take the player's agency away from them. Well, yeah. Paladin. That's the thing about players having agency, their actions aren't up to you. It sounds like you're planning more of a linear story for them to follow. That's basically the opposite of sandbox play. Well, if you had plans for what the characters would do and tried to enforce that plan in anyway, the player is right. You sticking to your pre-planned story precludes the players having agency. It's either, or...not both. Things look obvious when you have all the info. Not so much if you have little to no info. Except for the paladin who did nothing wrong and reported the crime. He should be rewarded. But the trouble is, you now have most of the group in prison, one PC free, and they're stuck in a town where the powerful NPCs can literally step in at any time and solve their problems. That's all around bad news. Uh...why? Unless the PCs are explicitly evil there's no reason for something like that to happen. If that's you as the referee trying to enforce your limits on where the PCs can go...you need to rethink things. Zero. You should be guiding them zero. Prep a whole lot of hooks and situations and prep absolutely zero story (as in no pre-defined beginning, middle, and end). There should be zero assumptions on your part about how the PCs act, what they do, or how they progress through a given scenario or hook. That's literally the point of sandbox play. The referee preps a lot and reacts to the players. You're following their lead. Nope. That's the worst thing you can do. You don't "direct" the story either way. There's no story. Something vaguely story-like emerges from 1) your prep, 2) the players' choices, and 3) you reacting to the players' choices. You don't. You let keep hold of the notion of player agency being supreme and let go of wanting to dictate how they react to your "good vs evil" theme. One of the PCs refused to fight in the good vs evil battle. That's infinitely more interesting than yet another black and white morality play. Well, don't offer suggestions. It's the referee's job to present problems and obstacles. It's the players' job to figure out how to overcome those problems and obstacles. Don't do that. That's you forcing them to act how you want by giving them knowledge they wouldn't otherwise have. [I][/I] No. Never retcon. Always move forward with what you have. "Yes, and..." what the players gave you. That's one option, sure. Have the paladin player make a new character since he's the only one out of prison and advance the timeline to when they get out. Or go full Suicide Squad and have the city official now use the PCs as expendable resources to throw at problems. Again, nope. Never retcon. Don't negate or deny what's happened. Nothing they do will matter if you retcon things to how "they should have happened" every time they make a choice you don't like. Always let the players' choices stand. No matter the results. Always bring in the logical consequences of those actions. If the players don't want to face the logical consequences of their character's actions, they'll learn to not do terrible stuff. Nah. You can salvage this. It's not so bad. That's going to be an issue. Siblings intentionally playing polar opposite characters knowing it's going to lead to conflict. That's a really bad sign. That seems excessive. Don't do that. It's not up to you how they resolve things. When you say things like this you give the impression these are the "right ways" to solve the situation. There shouldn't be a right way. The players can come up with whatever they can imagine. If you think it's reasonable, roll with it. But don't decide ahead of time what the solutions are and force them to guess the "right way" to resolve problems. [/QUOTE]
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