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Dealing with agency and retcon (in semi sandbox)
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<blockquote data-quote="ZebraDruid" data-source="post: 9063929" data-attributes="member: 7041885"><p>Thank you for all the responses! </p><p></p><p>-Keeping them in prison and letting them play out their time in jail, or <strong>escaping does seem like an interesting idea.</strong> I'll bring it up to them.</p><p>-The older brother and son being <strong>kidnapped instead of dead is a great idea</strong>, as only his wife and their maid/guards were confirmed dead.</p><p>-I agree <strong>retconning is awful</strong>, and no one likes it.</p><p>-I agree a <strong>good character and evil character causes conflict</strong> I didn't want them to have conflict, but this was the <strong>players idea</strong> and not mine, and I was simply rolling with it and creating what I thought to be a situation where it could go either way.</p><p>-I agree solid group<strong> cohesion is good</strong>, originally we didn't even have a cleric/healer.</p><p>-The wizard is actually <strong>neutral</strong>, not evil. In a party of 4 it's <strong>2 good</strong> <strong>1 neutral</strong> <strong>1 evil. </strong>The two brothers get along very well IC and OOC.</p><p>-The 4 hour discussion was excessive, but two of the people in the group love to talk, and I try to lend an <strong>open ear</strong>. (the other two left after an hour)</p><p>-I agree the morally black and white good guy win stories are <strong>overdone</strong>, but the paladin wanted a story like that.</p><p>-I kept the quest ambiguous at first because the paladin/ranger would have refused outright if he knew the truth, and there wouldn't be much to it without group splitting (which they don't want to do) That being said I can see the initial deception being annoying. (They all 4 said they didn't trust him.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>To give more context on the 'quest'</p><p></p><p>They wanted some kind of low level '<strong>dungeon quest</strong>' to do. I don't think I designed it all that well, but at the same time I tried to keep it very open ended and not write in key details before they even acted. The crypt was essentially that low level dungeon. (I had to build basic things in map editors like rooms for them to loot, and a dungeon to fight in, so it had to be at least somewhat pre planned or the dungeon would be boring and random gen, and also unbalanced) Room #3, 2 goblins 1 goblin rat and 1 kobold isn't very inspiring.</p><p></p><p>I originally only wanted to present them with an offer for a job to steal a body, at the time of that quest I hadn't planned anything beyond that there was a corpse they could retrieve from the crypt/dungeon, and a family that didn't want them to take it.</p><p>The <strong>wizard said he wanted to see</strong> the 'resurrection' ritual that the young brother was going to perform, thus I created an entirely different map and situation where they would go to the crypt where they'd see it performed. This was entirely <strong>because of the wizards request to see it.</strong></p><p></p><p>I do agree that <strong>it isn't good to 'trick' your players.</strong> I let them know that both brothers didn't seem to be telling the full truth, and I purposefully made the dialogue between them and the young brother shady. (me voicing him) I had him tell them that he had someone who would perform the resurrection without the churches help, which was a red flag for them.</p><p></p><p>The crypt they robbed also had <strong>bloody skulls</strong> and <strong>demonic</strong> <strong>insignia</strong>, as well as coffins that read '<strong>To serve in life, and in death'</strong> Inside the coffins were <strong>necromantic symbols</strong>, and yes the corpses attacked them. They were all calling it, that they didn't trust the younger brother, but still wanted to go deliver the body to see what would happen.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>To answer a few questions.</p><p></p><p><strong>-Why put tracking spells on their hands?</strong> Long answer.</p><p> In the beginning they were unwilling experiments in getting <strong>teleported by a gnomish contraption</strong> powered by a power <strong>gem of Desna</strong>, they spent some time in the jungle rescuing the gem that powered it when it became lost during transport, before returning it. I let them know this was just an <strong>initial prologue story</strong> to get them in the general groove that 'something' is occurring in the background,<strong> but not to worry</strong> about it until later. They <strong>didn't want a 'complete' sandbox</strong>, and all generally wanted me to homebrew a story that they could also explore around in.</p><p></p><p> I initially gave them <strong>complete freedom</strong> as they came back, but the first thing the cleric did was immediately run off with an important<strong> artifact</strong> connected to the machine that he then <strong>delivered, basically to the BBEG</strong>, As I said this is semi-sandbox, it has a very loose story for them to explore at their own pace.</p><p></p><p>The group and even the cleric told me that I shouldn't give them 'that much' freedom if it's going to end up getting them killed. We basically agreed that it would be better to <strong>warm up </strong>more to<strong> total freedom</strong>, instead of just going wild. Because most of us are <strong>new to 2E</strong>, and don't have the world details totally fleshed out. The spell trackers were a temporary story reason to keep them in the city for a couple sessions for them to get used to the game, and generally give them a feeling of accomplishment when they were let off the leash so to speak. (they were being watched by the magical FBI while they investigated why half the market place disappeared around the gnomish contraption)</p><p></p><p></p><p>--------</p><p><strong>-Why not make the parties starting situation reflect their actions?</strong></p><p> -Initially I did, there was an <strong>inventor</strong>, he was there <strong>showing off his invention</strong>s at the city fair. (they had to quit due to schedule conflicts since they could only play 1 day every 2 weeks.) The cleric was a <strong>gunslinger assassin</strong> originally, who wanted to start the game <strong>assassinating someone</strong> (the gnome who had the invention mentioned), the <strong>paladin</strong> was sent there on a dream <strong>vision quest by Sarenrae</strong> to stop a terrible event (linked to the teleportation machine) The<strong> wizard</strong> had <strong>anmesia</strong>, (and asked me to <strong>write him a background story</strong> to discover on his own). The <strong>ranger</strong> was fine with just being there, but mainly came to the fair for fun. (He just wanted to <strong>explore his story</strong> without any prior hooks)</p><p></p><p>It's a bit convoluted, but no one wanted to just start with some cliche, at a tavern and have a dwarf merchant walk up and say "Hey me lads I need some goblins killed in thar cave who done took me wares."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'll run these ideas past them, they know they 'can' fail. I'm just worried a TPK will result in a general disinterest in continuing, as most people are attached to their characters after 3 months of on and off play.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ZebraDruid, post: 9063929, member: 7041885"] Thank you for all the responses! -Keeping them in prison and letting them play out their time in jail, or [B]escaping does seem like an interesting idea.[/B] I'll bring it up to them. -The older brother and son being [B]kidnapped instead of dead is a great idea[/B], as only his wife and their maid/guards were confirmed dead. -I agree [B]retconning is awful[/B], and no one likes it. -I agree a [B]good character and evil character causes conflict[/B] I didn't want them to have conflict, but this was the [B]players idea[/B] and not mine, and I was simply rolling with it and creating what I thought to be a situation where it could go either way. -I agree solid group[B] cohesion is good[/B], originally we didn't even have a cleric/healer. -The wizard is actually [B]neutral[/B], not evil. In a party of 4 it's [B]2 good[/B] [B]1 neutral[/B] [B]1 evil. [/B]The two brothers get along very well IC and OOC. -The 4 hour discussion was excessive, but two of the people in the group love to talk, and I try to lend an [B]open ear[/B]. (the other two left after an hour) -I agree the morally black and white good guy win stories are [B]overdone[/B], but the paladin wanted a story like that. -I kept the quest ambiguous at first because the paladin/ranger would have refused outright if he knew the truth, and there wouldn't be much to it without group splitting (which they don't want to do) That being said I can see the initial deception being annoying. (They all 4 said they didn't trust him.) To give more context on the 'quest' They wanted some kind of low level '[B]dungeon quest[/B]' to do. I don't think I designed it all that well, but at the same time I tried to keep it very open ended and not write in key details before they even acted. The crypt was essentially that low level dungeon. (I had to build basic things in map editors like rooms for them to loot, and a dungeon to fight in, so it had to be at least somewhat pre planned or the dungeon would be boring and random gen, and also unbalanced) Room #3, 2 goblins 1 goblin rat and 1 kobold isn't very inspiring. I originally only wanted to present them with an offer for a job to steal a body, at the time of that quest I hadn't planned anything beyond that there was a corpse they could retrieve from the crypt/dungeon, and a family that didn't want them to take it. The [B]wizard said he wanted to see[/B] the 'resurrection' ritual that the young brother was going to perform, thus I created an entirely different map and situation where they would go to the crypt where they'd see it performed. This was entirely [B]because of the wizards request to see it.[/B] I do agree that [B]it isn't good to 'trick' your players.[/B] I let them know that both brothers didn't seem to be telling the full truth, and I purposefully made the dialogue between them and the young brother shady. (me voicing him) I had him tell them that he had someone who would perform the resurrection without the churches help, which was a red flag for them. The crypt they robbed also had [B]bloody skulls[/B] and [B]demonic[/B] [B]insignia[/B], as well as coffins that read '[B]To serve in life, and in death'[/B] Inside the coffins were [B]necromantic symbols[/B], and yes the corpses attacked them. They were all calling it, that they didn't trust the younger brother, but still wanted to go deliver the body to see what would happen. To answer a few questions. [B]-Why put tracking spells on their hands?[/B] Long answer. In the beginning they were unwilling experiments in getting [B]teleported by a gnomish contraption[/B] powered by a power [B]gem of Desna[/B], they spent some time in the jungle rescuing the gem that powered it when it became lost during transport, before returning it. I let them know this was just an [B]initial prologue story[/B] to get them in the general groove that 'something' is occurring in the background,[B] but not to worry[/B] about it until later. They [B]didn't want a 'complete' sandbox[/B], and all generally wanted me to homebrew a story that they could also explore around in. I initially gave them [B]complete freedom[/B] as they came back, but the first thing the cleric did was immediately run off with an important[B] artifact[/B] connected to the machine that he then [B]delivered, basically to the BBEG[/B], As I said this is semi-sandbox, it has a very loose story for them to explore at their own pace. The group and even the cleric told me that I shouldn't give them 'that much' freedom if it's going to end up getting them killed. We basically agreed that it would be better to [B]warm up [/B]more to[B] total freedom[/B], instead of just going wild. Because most of us are [B]new to 2E[/B], and don't have the world details totally fleshed out. The spell trackers were a temporary story reason to keep them in the city for a couple sessions for them to get used to the game, and generally give them a feeling of accomplishment when they were let off the leash so to speak. (they were being watched by the magical FBI while they investigated why half the market place disappeared around the gnomish contraption) -------- [B]-Why not make the parties starting situation reflect their actions?[/B] -Initially I did, there was an [B]inventor[/B], he was there [B]showing off his invention[/B]s at the city fair. (they had to quit due to schedule conflicts since they could only play 1 day every 2 weeks.) The cleric was a [B]gunslinger assassin[/B] originally, who wanted to start the game [B]assassinating someone[/B] (the gnome who had the invention mentioned), the [B]paladin[/B] was sent there on a dream [B]vision quest by Sarenrae[/B] to stop a terrible event (linked to the teleportation machine) The[B] wizard[/B] had [B]anmesia[/B], (and asked me to [B]write him a background story[/B] to discover on his own). The [B]ranger[/B] was fine with just being there, but mainly came to the fair for fun. (He just wanted to [B]explore his story[/B] without any prior hooks) It's a bit convoluted, but no one wanted to just start with some cliche, at a tavern and have a dwarf merchant walk up and say "Hey me lads I need some goblins killed in thar cave who done took me wares." I'll run these ideas past them, they know they 'can' fail. I'm just worried a TPK will result in a general disinterest in continuing, as most people are attached to their characters after 3 months of on and off play. [/QUOTE]
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