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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9065159" data-attributes="member: 42582">[USER=7041885]@ZebraDruid[/USER], I get the impression you are not very familiar with non-railroading RPG play.What I say is true. I know it is true from many years - decades - of experience GMing high-agency RPGing, and paying close attention to what distinguishes it from low-agency RPGing.In your example of a "deep dark hole" whose raison d'etre is established by the GM, whose nature is established by the GM, and in which the players make an essentially blind choice as to what to do - then the play is low-agency. It may be good play or bad play - that's a further question - but it's not play in which the players are exercising meaningful control over the content of the shared imagining. At best they get to prompt the GM to say one thing (if they declare their PCs jump into the hole) or another (if they declare their PCs walk on by the hole).What you are describing here is a type of puzzle play: the secret backstory is a puzzle, and the players are expected to unravel it via their action declarations.The most classic example of this is a Gygaxian dungeon. It relies on many features to work: the environment is near-static until the PCs interact with it, and hence scouting and planning are highly viable strategies; the environment is sufficiently austere that it is possible for the players to learn it; the environment conforms sufficiently to certain shared tropes and expectations (eg around architecture, furnishings, NPC/creature motivations, etc) that the players can make reasonable conjectures about it. Also, the players are largely in control of framing and pacing (they choose which doors to open, when to leave the dungeon, etc).The more that a GM's puzzle-backstory varies these parameters, then the more unreasonable it becomes to expect the players to solve it. The most obvious variation in the OP is that the players are not in charge of pacing and framing: play begins with a "quest giver". The players, not unreasonably, treat this as a GM hook that they are expected to "bite" at.We can't answer this question in the abstract. In Gygaxian play, if this is a hall in the dungeon then traps are fair game, and players are expected to declare various precautions taken by their PCs. On the other hand, in Gygaxian play, if this is a hall in the tavern where the PCs rest betwee forays into the dungeon, it looks more like a "gotcha" to me.In a non-Gygaxian game, suppose that the quest-giver invites the PCs back to their rooms to spell out the details of the quest. The players, believing (not unreasonably) that this is part of biting on the hook, have their PCs agree. They don't declare that they look around for traps in the parlour, for poison in the tea, etc. In that situation, if the GM springs a trap and then responds to the cries of "unfair" or "railroad" that the players should have searched their surroundings, well my sympathies are 100% with the players. How were they supposed to know that what the GM was presenting as a hook was in fact part of play? From their point of view it's all arbitrary. And that is one hallmark of low-agency play.What is the significance of the tree? Why do, or ought, the players to care about it? Why have you, as GM, narrated a strong wind? This example is so underdescribed we can't tell anything about whether or not the players are exercising agency.Well, I've got dozens - maybe hundreds - of actual play posts on these boards. I'll link to one thread - <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/torchbearer-2e-actual-play-of-this-awesome-system.691233/" target="_blank">https://www.enworld.org/threads/torchbearer-2e-actual-play-of-this-awesome-system.691233/</a> - and you can tell me whether or not the play I describe meets your standards of interest or complexity: .To be honest, this comment reinforces my impression that you are not very familiar with non-railroading RPGing.</blockquote>

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