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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CreamCloud0" data-source="post: 9066198" data-attributes="member: 7034710">okay but this definition as presented implies to me no requirement of knowing particular DCs, there are ironclad rules that both the player and DM know and must obey, the known goal of an action is established when the player declares their action their intent of performing it, as well as on a larger scale directing the story itself from those cumulative individual actions, but going by this part specifically and some of the rest of the post it's fromyou say that the player must know the guaranteed outcomes of both success and failure prior to attempting anything as well as there never being any factors in universe outside the players knowledge that may influence the situation and cause outcomes they were not expecting?are you saying that the player should never be caught unawares by anything else they never had agency in that situation???given that i specifically asked to be corrected if you though i had misinterpreted your viewpoint i don't appreciate the insinuations that i was intentionally presenting it incorrectly or with malice thank you very much</blockquote>