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*TTRPGs General
Dealing with agency and retcon (in semi sandbox)
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9067277" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>The principal significance of a player move in a RPG is to establish some element of, or contribution to, a shared fiction.</p><p></p><p>So when [USER=99817]@chaochou[/USER] says that player agency depends upon the following:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">*Transparent goals for characters - often through authorship of them by the players</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">*Facilitation of that authorship through group creation of setting and/or situation such that character goals are given meaning and context by player choice, not secret GM backstory</p><p></p><p>I do not see any problematic "conflation".</p><p></p><p>If the situation is created solely by the GM - which is to say, if [USER=99817]@chaochou[/USER]'s final dot point is not exemplified in play - then when a player declares an action they don't know what is <em>really</em> at stake in its resolution. Because that will flow from the GM's decision-making alone ("secret GM backstory"). Which means that the relationship between (i) the player's decision as to what their PC tries to achieve, by performing this action, and (ii) what happens next, is not under the player's control. It is being decided entirely by the GM. Hence low player agency.</p><p></p><p>Conversely, the way a scenario "yields to" player authorship, in a RPG of the sort chaochou has in mind, is because the players are able to declare actions for their PCs that, if successful, result in the fiction changing in ways that give affect to the players' visions and aspirations for their PCs in the situation. The RPGs he has in mind are exemplified by Apocalypse World and Burning Wheel. And the way these RPGs secure that connection between <em>declared action</em> and <em>result if the action is successful</em> is by giving the players input - whether direct or indirect - into setting and/or situation.</p><p></p><p>In Burning Wheel, this is achieved principally (not exclusively) by (i) the player establishing Beliefs, Relationships, etc as part of PC build/development, and (ii) the GM being required to frame scenes that speak directly to those elements of the PC and put them under pressure. In Apocalypse World, this is achieved primarily (not exclusively) by the fact that GM moves are characterised by reference to the concerns and orientations towards situation brought by the players: "announce <strong>badness</strong>", "put someone in <strong>a spot</strong>", "provide <strong>an opportunity</strong>", etc - the bolded terms all get their meaning only by reference to those player-authored concerns and orientations.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 9067277, member: 42582"] The principal significance of a player move in a RPG is to establish some element of, or contribution to, a shared fiction. So when [USER=99817]@chaochou[/USER] says that player agency depends upon the following: [indent]*Transparent goals for characters - often through authorship of them by the players *Facilitation of that authorship through group creation of setting and/or situation such that character goals are given meaning and context by player choice, not secret GM backstory[/indent] I do not see any problematic "conflation". If the situation is created solely by the GM - which is to say, if [USER=99817]@chaochou[/USER]'s final dot point is not exemplified in play - then when a player declares an action they don't know what is [I]really[/I] at stake in its resolution. Because that will flow from the GM's decision-making alone ("secret GM backstory"). Which means that the relationship between (i) the player's decision as to what their PC tries to achieve, by performing this action, and (ii) what happens next, is not under the player's control. It is being decided entirely by the GM. Hence low player agency. Conversely, the way a scenario "yields to" player authorship, in a RPG of the sort chaochou has in mind, is because the players are able to declare actions for their PCs that, if successful, result in the fiction changing in ways that give affect to the players' visions and aspirations for their PCs in the situation. The RPGs he has in mind are exemplified by Apocalypse World and Burning Wheel. And the way these RPGs secure that connection between [I]declared action[/I] and [I]result if the action is successful[/I] is by giving the players input - whether direct or indirect - into setting and/or situation. In Burning Wheel, this is achieved principally (not exclusively) by (i) the player establishing Beliefs, Relationships, etc as part of PC build/development, and (ii) the GM being required to frame scenes that speak directly to those elements of the PC and put them under pressure. In Apocalypse World, this is achieved primarily (not exclusively) by the fact that GM moves are characterised by reference to the concerns and orientations towards situation brought by the players: "announce [B]badness[/B]", "put someone in [B]a spot[/B]", "provide [B]an opportunity[/B]", etc - the bolded terms all get their meaning only by reference to those player-authored concerns and orientations. [/QUOTE]
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