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Dealing with agency and retcon (in semi sandbox)
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9074016" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Well, 'win' can cover a lot of territory! Even outside of what most people would consider 'winning' there are other motives for playing games entirely. I mean, I don't play chess against my buddy the state champion to win, trust me! Yes, I do play moves which are generally 'strong' but here the notion of 'moving towards victory' (or at least the least possible distance away from it) simply structures the interaction. The goals and motives of the players in one of these games is not to be found within the board! Honestly, a world championship tournament largely takes place outside of actual rules-based play, though obviously in that case winning in a formal sense is primary. Anyway, we often employ personal and idiosyncratic criteria for our actions, and often 'game play' is embedded in other contexts.</p><p></p><p>Well, you might think of that as some ideal that you have, sure. I think we get your point, how can you evaluate win/loss cons and thus the objective value of any 'move' without them being fixed goals? But I go back to my previous paragraph above. I don't think 'playing a game' requires that! Nor do I think objective goals are the only way people evaluate things they are doing. I take simple pleasure in running my character in the BitD game. The character has goals, which I have constructed (sometimes with regard to the overall game context, but generally tied into it somehow). I can change those, though to do so willy-nilly in some arbitrary way would undermine a major premise of the game, which is to 'play to find out what happens'. Within the context of the character having goals I will play in the most optimal way I am able, and as a player, I will find and set interesting goals and help to adjudicate the narrative outcomes and evolution of those goals over time.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Its a fun concept!</p><p></p><p>Yeah, actually that was a great part of what drew me to RPGs in the early days. Honestly I have nothing against, and could still enjoy, some of that play today. Its like spinach, I love spinach, but I only want to eat it a few times a week <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />. A Choy is also good, so I have that on other days!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 9074016, member: 82106"] Well, 'win' can cover a lot of territory! Even outside of what most people would consider 'winning' there are other motives for playing games entirely. I mean, I don't play chess against my buddy the state champion to win, trust me! Yes, I do play moves which are generally 'strong' but here the notion of 'moving towards victory' (or at least the least possible distance away from it) simply structures the interaction. The goals and motives of the players in one of these games is not to be found within the board! Honestly, a world championship tournament largely takes place outside of actual rules-based play, though obviously in that case winning in a formal sense is primary. Anyway, we often employ personal and idiosyncratic criteria for our actions, and often 'game play' is embedded in other contexts. Well, you might think of that as some ideal that you have, sure. I think we get your point, how can you evaluate win/loss cons and thus the objective value of any 'move' without them being fixed goals? But I go back to my previous paragraph above. I don't think 'playing a game' requires that! Nor do I think objective goals are the only way people evaluate things they are doing. I take simple pleasure in running my character in the BitD game. The character has goals, which I have constructed (sometimes with regard to the overall game context, but generally tied into it somehow). I can change those, though to do so willy-nilly in some arbitrary way would undermine a major premise of the game, which is to 'play to find out what happens'. Within the context of the character having goals I will play in the most optimal way I am able, and as a player, I will find and set interesting goals and help to adjudicate the narrative outcomes and evolution of those goals over time. Its a fun concept! Yeah, actually that was a great part of what drew me to RPGs in the early days. Honestly I have nothing against, and could still enjoy, some of that play today. Its like spinach, I love spinach, but I only want to eat it a few times a week ;). A Choy is also good, so I have that on other days! [/QUOTE]
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