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<blockquote data-quote="Carpe DM" data-source="post: 3865434" data-attributes="member: 677">There are some good responses here. Player arguments can be (1) a response to frustration at not being able to influence the world; or (2) an attempt to grab center stage.Most GMS claim that (2) is what is happening.&nbsp; I don't think so.&nbsp; But the way you can tell is if the rule is simple, or marginal.If the rule that they're arguing about is simple, or the outcome of the ruling forwards the plot from the GM's perspective, then this is what is happening: you're railroading the players by changing a basic rule of the game.&nbsp; They have every right to be upset: rules, and dice, are how players influence the world.&nbsp; Changing the rules is a source of power to the GM, but a source of frustration to players.If the rule they're arguing about is marginal, and the outcome doesn't affect the plot (note that this is much less likely to happen) then maybe you've got a spotlight-grabber on your hands.By the way -- I'm a longstanding GM, who has to really restrain himself from bitching about rules when my current GM (who is less experienced) is running the show.Here's what I do, from a player perspective: I say it once.&nbsp; I state the correct rule, having already looked it up.&nbsp; I then will not further discuss it -- the GM makes a decision, and goes on.Here's what I do, from a GM perspective: I say it once.&nbsp; I ask the player to look it up while the game continues, and inform me if I was wrong.&nbsp; That doesn't change the outcome, but it helps me next time.And to the poster, above, who said that one of the things a GM can do about argumentative players is to say &quot;yes&quot; more often: you're absolutely right.&nbsp; It's the high-functioning, engaged players who are likely to argue about rules.&nbsp; These are your cream-of-the-crop people.&nbsp; They often don't like arguing more than you do.&nbsp; However, they're also not interested in playing bit parts in your mental novel.&nbsp; The rules are how players get to turn the tables on the GM.&nbsp; Don't take that away from them.This is why, as a GM, I really try not to rule 0 a clear rule.&nbsp; I only decide ambiguous stuff.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Carpe DM, post: 3865434, member: 677"] There are some good responses here. Player arguments can be (1) a response to frustration at not being able to influence the world; or (2) an attempt to grab center stage. Most GMS claim that (2) is what is happening. I don't think so. But the way you can tell is if the rule is simple, or marginal. If the rule that they're arguing about is simple, or the outcome of the ruling forwards the plot from the GM's perspective, then this is what is happening: you're railroading the players by changing a basic rule of the game. They have every right to be upset: rules, and dice, are how players influence the world. Changing the rules is a source of power to the GM, but a source of frustration to players. If the rule they're arguing about is marginal, and the outcome doesn't affect the plot (note that this is much less likely to happen) then maybe you've got a spotlight-grabber on your hands. By the way -- I'm a longstanding GM, who has to really restrain himself from bitching about rules when my current GM (who is less experienced) is running the show. Here's what I do, from a player perspective: I say it once. I state the correct rule, having already looked it up. I then will not further discuss it -- the GM makes a decision, and goes on. Here's what I do, from a GM perspective: I say it once. I ask the player to look it up while the game continues, and inform me if I was wrong. That doesn't change the outcome, but it helps me next time. And to the poster, above, who said that one of the things a GM can do about argumentative players is to say "yes" more often: you're absolutely right. It's the high-functioning, engaged players who are likely to argue about rules. These are your cream-of-the-crop people. They often don't like arguing more than you do. However, they're also not interested in playing bit parts in your mental novel. The rules are how players get to turn the tables on the GM. Don't take that away from them. This is why, as a GM, I really try not to rule 0 a clear rule. I only decide ambiguous stuff. [/QUOTE]

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