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Message: <blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 8224543" data-attributes="member: 86653">I'm going to give this another shot and take a break. For those honestly engaging, thank you.Exactly. Hence the problem. As mentioned it's a fallacy to assume optimizers don't care about character or story, but in this case it happens to be basically true. One cares a little, the other treats it like a video game.I generally expect gamers to have multiple avenues of fun. So if someone enjoys optimizing, fine as long as they can have fun with other aspects of the game. As long as the optimizing isn't too egregious, it's manageable. This is the corner of the edge case where the players don't seem to care about anything but "winning" and push for the most egregious combos. One of them tried to play a coffeelock. Their latest idea was a Twilight and Peace cleric combo.There's a difference between enjoying the minigame...for example, I have a pile of characters waiting to use. I like making characters. Enjoying the minigame isn't optimizing. That's next level.I don't hate either of them. I don't think they're bad people. I think they're incredibly rude. Because they're putting their fun over the fun and cohesion of the group. I'm used to players who are willing to switch game systems because a few players in the group aren't having fun. As an example, we were playing Dungeon World but one of the optimizers wasn't enjoying it because it was too light. So we switched to 5E. And now that we're playing that, he's refusing to stop optimizing despite being asked and having other players voice their problems. He cares more about being able to optimize his characters for his enjoyment than the enjoyment of anyone else at the table. People defending optimization jump on that and say it's not optimization that's the problem, but it is.Optimizing isn't wrong...up to a point. Being the best rogue you can be is fine. Being the best whatever is fine. Seeking out all the broken combos that break the game is not okay. I don't even mind a bit of DPS optimization. But when one character's max damage crit deals less than half another characters regular damage every round...you get to watch the non-optimizer deflate in front of you. That's literally the opposite of what I'm here for.I've suggested pre-gens. Surprise, the optimizers refuse.Not really a problem. Most of those are generally niche spotlight roles. There's a party face, a party scout, etc. Combat is for everyone. Not just the optimizers. They hog so much of the spotlight that the rest of the group is bored. With combat being a bigger part of most D&D than the other pillars combined, it makes for a bad time. And no, increasing the non-combat time doesn't work because the two optimizers start whining about being bored. Have you played Shadowrun or heard the meme about the rest of the party going to get dinner while the decker does their thing? It's a hair's breadth from that.If no one's optimized, everyone contributes roughly the same in combat. Out of combat you still have certain roles being filled by different characters. But that's generally fine as players who want to do those roles tend to make those characters. Combat is for everyone. Once optimization creeps in, it becomes an arms race. And again, I don't use optimization to mean having a high stat in your class's main stat or being trained in important, class-relevant skills.Until recently I'd agree. These two aren't. They don't care about the rest of the game. Like at all.They're long-time friends. Hence the problem. If it were two randos our regular group picked up I'd have dropped them ages ago.I'm resisting specifics as that will devolve the thread into an argument about specific builds rather than the general problem of optimization.</blockquote>

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