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Dealing with optimizers at the table
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<blockquote data-quote="ad_hoc" data-source="post: 8226789" data-attributes="member: 6748898"><p>"Optimization" in 5e is largely smoke and mirrors. There is no great secret. The people are not the greatest strategists on the planet (go to an optimization board and ask them what accomplishments they've gotten in competitive games and you will get crickets).</p><p></p><p>It takes 3 main forms:</p><p></p><p>#1 Choosing the stronger option. Leather or Studded Leather? Well the latter is 1 more AC so if they both fit the character concept most people will choose the better one. Everyone can do this and it is expected. People who don't fancy themselves optimizers usually create a character concept first then find options to realize it while optimizers choose options first and then seek to justify those options with narrative explanations. This is fine.</p><p></p><p>#2 Incorrect rules. Sometimes this is rules abuse. The answer here is to just say no and don't engage in an argument. Everyone knows what is going on. If they argue don't play with them. Sometimes this is misinterpreting the rules, though it is almost always done in the favour of the PC. A common example of this is the Rogue Assassin having auto-crits even if they lose initiative. Another example is Darkvision granting full sight even though darkness is only considered dim light. Ability Checks are often misunderstood too. As a DM if something doesn't feel right it probably isn't. Sometimes official rulings are bad too. Feel free to change rules to fit your game.</p><p></p><p>#3 Expecting the DM to cater their game to them. This is the big one. Optimizers tend to create hyper specialized characters and then cry foul if the DM doesn't change the game so that their character can be the star of the show and trivialize everything. The answer here is to just not allow the player to dictate the game. If they make a character who is probably going to have trouble warn them ahead of time. Then tell them if they are into optimization they should create a PC who will be good in many situations, as D&D is often a game of unique situations. All rounder and adaptable characters are secretly the strongest, having the more moments to shine.</p><p></p><p>Some examples:</p><p></p><p>1. Super high AC. All creatures, unless they have a specific reason not to, should just go attack other PCs. Don't play all monsters as zombies. </p><p>2. Low AC ranged spellcaster. Creatures should be getting into melee and attacking these characters a lot. On optimization boards it is assumed that if a PC doesn't engage in melee that they simply won't be in melee and will be 'safe.' And a DM who has creatures attack them is 'out to get them.' Well yeah, combat is dangerous.</p><p>3. Don't let players choose their magic items. This again is something common on optimization boards. They assume they will have specific items for their 'builds'. Polearm Mastery is a good feat, but if a player wants to take it on a low level character warn them that the odds of finding a magic one is pretty low.</p><p>4. The character who sneaks ahead of the party to get in some preemptive attacks is going to have a good time, until they don't. Sometimes the hunter becomes the hunted and without a party around to save them, they're probably going to die. Warn the player ahead of time that splitting the party is usually a bad idea. If the character dies don't engage in their whining. </p><p>5. Concerning Ability Checks. Not all actions which result in an Ability Check only require 1 combat action. When I set a scene I ask everyone what their characters are doing and then I resolve their actions. The Cleric might say they are helping another character and casting Guidance for them, but that means they aren't helping someone else. In practice Guidance should not be used on all Ability Checks. If the characters have no pressure and can do everything they want then you probably shouldn't be making Ability Checks anyway. Just because only 1 PC decides to talk to a<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite23" alt="(n)" title="Thumbs down (n)" loading="lazy" data-shortname="(n)" /> NPC(s) doesn't mean they are the only one to roll the check. Make Charisma checks group checks since the whole group is there and those other characters who are just standing around will be making an impression whether they want to or not (give them all a chance to say or do something first, if they choose to not do or say anything that is on them).</p><p>6. There should be consequences to long rests. If they can just rest whenever they want without consequence then why are you playing out the adventure? Where is the excitement? The drama? Just narrate that they loot the dungeon and move on to something more exciting. There should be stakes. 8 hours is a long time in a dynamic environment. What are the character's goals? How are other creatures reacting to them? Etc. You should have answers to what happens if they attempt to rest before the adventure begins. Optimizers will cry 'DM fiat!' and 'you're taking away my agency!'. This is both how the game is structured and how action/adventure stories are structured.</p><p></p><p>Intentionally or not, optimizers need to bully the DM to get their feeling of being powerful. At the end of the day tell them that this is a group game telling an ensemble story. They don't get to be the star. If they create a hyper specialized character then they should be prepared to rarely shine. That's on them, not you.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ad_hoc, post: 8226789, member: 6748898"] "Optimization" in 5e is largely smoke and mirrors. There is no great secret. The people are not the greatest strategists on the planet (go to an optimization board and ask them what accomplishments they've gotten in competitive games and you will get crickets). It takes 3 main forms: #1 Choosing the stronger option. Leather or Studded Leather? Well the latter is 1 more AC so if they both fit the character concept most people will choose the better one. Everyone can do this and it is expected. People who don't fancy themselves optimizers usually create a character concept first then find options to realize it while optimizers choose options first and then seek to justify those options with narrative explanations. This is fine. #2 Incorrect rules. Sometimes this is rules abuse. The answer here is to just say no and don't engage in an argument. Everyone knows what is going on. If they argue don't play with them. Sometimes this is misinterpreting the rules, though it is almost always done in the favour of the PC. A common example of this is the Rogue Assassin having auto-crits even if they lose initiative. Another example is Darkvision granting full sight even though darkness is only considered dim light. Ability Checks are often misunderstood too. As a DM if something doesn't feel right it probably isn't. Sometimes official rulings are bad too. Feel free to change rules to fit your game. #3 Expecting the DM to cater their game to them. This is the big one. Optimizers tend to create hyper specialized characters and then cry foul if the DM doesn't change the game so that their character can be the star of the show and trivialize everything. The answer here is to just not allow the player to dictate the game. If they make a character who is probably going to have trouble warn them ahead of time. Then tell them if they are into optimization they should create a PC who will be good in many situations, as D&D is often a game of unique situations. All rounder and adaptable characters are secretly the strongest, having the more moments to shine. Some examples: 1. Super high AC. All creatures, unless they have a specific reason not to, should just go attack other PCs. Don't play all monsters as zombies. 2. Low AC ranged spellcaster. Creatures should be getting into melee and attacking these characters a lot. On optimization boards it is assumed that if a PC doesn't engage in melee that they simply won't be in melee and will be 'safe.' And a DM who has creatures attack them is 'out to get them.' Well yeah, combat is dangerous. 3. Don't let players choose their magic items. This again is something common on optimization boards. They assume they will have specific items for their 'builds'. Polearm Mastery is a good feat, but if a player wants to take it on a low level character warn them that the odds of finding a magic one is pretty low. 4. The character who sneaks ahead of the party to get in some preemptive attacks is going to have a good time, until they don't. Sometimes the hunter becomes the hunted and without a party around to save them, they're probably going to die. Warn the player ahead of time that splitting the party is usually a bad idea. If the character dies don't engage in their whining. 5. Concerning Ability Checks. Not all actions which result in an Ability Check only require 1 combat action. When I set a scene I ask everyone what their characters are doing and then I resolve their actions. The Cleric might say they are helping another character and casting Guidance for them, but that means they aren't helping someone else. In practice Guidance should not be used on all Ability Checks. If the characters have no pressure and can do everything they want then you probably shouldn't be making Ability Checks anyway. Just because only 1 PC decides to talk to a(n) NPC(s) doesn't mean they are the only one to roll the check. Make Charisma checks group checks since the whole group is there and those other characters who are just standing around will be making an impression whether they want to or not (give them all a chance to say or do something first, if they choose to not do or say anything that is on them). 6. There should be consequences to long rests. If they can just rest whenever they want without consequence then why are you playing out the adventure? Where is the excitement? The drama? Just narrate that they loot the dungeon and move on to something more exciting. There should be stakes. 8 hours is a long time in a dynamic environment. What are the character's goals? How are other creatures reacting to them? Etc. You should have answers to what happens if they attempt to rest before the adventure begins. Optimizers will cry 'DM fiat!' and 'you're taking away my agency!'. This is both how the game is structured and how action/adventure stories are structured. Intentionally or not, optimizers need to bully the DM to get their feeling of being powerful. At the end of the day tell them that this is a group game telling an ensemble story. They don't get to be the star. If they create a hyper specialized character then they should be prepared to rarely shine. That's on them, not you. [/QUOTE]
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