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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Greg K" data-source="post: 8228831" data-attributes="member: 5038">I am not sure if this belongs here or whether I should have begun a new thread (and my apologies upfront for the length of the post).  However, I think part of any conversation on optimization requires understanding differences in "player types" as too often one or more styles get villified rather than acknowledging that they are simply bad at a given table. Players have different motivations for playing the game. These motivations can lead to different optimization goals, different beliefs about what type of optimization and/or degree of optmization is appropirate or inappropriate, and the purpose of playing the game. When one or more of these views are in opposition to those of others at table, conflict can arise.Before looking at player types, I want to give my thoughts on optimization.1. Optimization is a tool to meet a goal or goals related to one's character concept. The goal can be directed to combat, power, a focus on a particular skill, or to best mechanically reflects an overall character concept.  Any time that a player assigns/allocates resources to meet a particular goal or concept they are engaging in optimization.  The only way to avoid optimization would be to randomly generate the character or assign things haphazardly without thought of the character and how to represent it .2. Optimization is not binary. There are degrees of optimization. It is a continuum on an axis. Someone randomly rolling the mechanical aspects without any choice in assignment or haphazardly assigning without thought would be 0 (or not engaging) on the axis. However, as soon as one begins prioritizing resources to a concept, they are participating in some degree of optimization. For instance, placing one's highest ability score in Dex, because it gives your rogue bonuses on their rogue related proficiencies is optimizing. Taking a skill or proficiency to mechaniclally reflect a character's training and gain the mechanical benefit is also engaging in a degree of optimization. Someone scouring every tome for every last point is going to be at the far end of the spectrum.3. Optimization need not have the goal of focusing on a single area and getting the most efficiency or output possible in that area. First, as stated in #2 above, optimization is on a continuum. Second, it is possible to have multiple goals that need to be met. When this occurs, it is often necessary to trade off maximum possible efficency/output in one or more areas to meet established goals for other areas This is called Systems Optimization.4. If mechanically representation of a character is a goal involving at least some forethought in the allocation of resources to achieve that representation, I submit that what many people consider just "building a character" does involve a degree of optimization. One has a vision of their character and assigns resources (ability scores (and points if doing point buy), proficiencies (or skill points in some editions). Furthermore, since optimization is not binary, the degree of optimization is how much effort is spent by the player fine tuning the mechanical aspects and bonuses to best get close to the ideal vision he or she character at the point of beginning play.Hence, it is not just the Butt-Kickers and Power Gamers that can engage in optimization . Other styles can engage in optimization, but the goals may be different. Furthermore,  based upon the definitions of "player types" below, optimization is not required to be a Butt-Kicker or Power Gamer, because they are motivations for playing the game.Robin Laws, in both Robin Law's of Good Mastering and the 4e DMGs,  identified several types of players by what motivates them. Now, between the two sources,  some player types are identified under different names, some share the same name, and a few are unique to one source or the other. I am going to list them, primarily, as they are found in Robin's Laws of Good Mastering, but I will include the 4e definition as well.I also want to note a few things before getting to the player types. First, each of the following types are a different axis with their own continnum. As such, many people are a combination of multiple types with one or two usually being more prominent as evident form the results of people posting on ENWorld, RPGNet and other sites whom took an old online quiz and posted their results (Unfortunately, for the curious, the quiz was removed last time I checked).On to the player types. (Note: I have included an observation and/or comment with a few of the player types)Butt-Kicker (4e Slayer)You like a straightforward combat character. After a long day at the office, you want to clobber foes and once more prove your superiority over all who would challenge you.(4e Slayer: The slayer is like the power gamer, but s/he is even easier to please. She emphasizes kicking the tar out of monsters. Maybe she does so to let off a little steam in a safe way, or s/he likes the joy of feeling superior. Perhaps it’s the pleasure of having the power to mete out punishment to villains. D&D combat is thrilling. Few other aspects of the game put a character in such apparent jeopardy. Beating the bad guys is a clear success. Most players enjoy these D&D elements, but the slayer seeks them foremost.)According to 4e, notes about the Butt-Kicker (or Slayer as it is called in 4e), the Butt-Kicker optimizes for combat. I would like to point out that Butt-Kicker ,by both definitons, is a motivation based around the enjoyment of combat. There is no requirement for optimization (let alone an extreme degree of optimizaiton). Yes, optimization is a tool used by many butt-kickers to achieve their goal- even if it is as simple as putting a high stat in Strenght for non-dex melee types, However,  in many early editions, you rolled and took the scores in order with a 9 in Stregnth qualifying fighter. Thankfully, in some versions earlier versions ability modifiers for combat were minimal (or did not exist at all). Hence, optimization is not a requirment to be a Butt-Kicker.4e also states that butt-kickers place less emphasis on story and roleplayig elements. This is not true of all butt-kickers, but many place a high emphasis on combat over everything else. When the butt-kicker is heavily focused on combat over everything else (with the possible exception of Power Gamer), it can become an issue for Exploration, Method Acting and Storytelling focused groups (or groups that place some emphasis on one or more of these. At best, the Butt-Kicker remains quiet until combat starts. At the worst, the Butt-Kicker complains and becomes an Instigator starting combat to relieve his or her boredom during the RP portions.Power GamerThe Power Gamer wants to make his character bigger, tougher, buffer, and richer. However success is defined in your game, that's what you want. You want the "game" put back into "roleplaying game," and you want the chance to add shiny new abilities to your character sheet.(4e Power Gamer: A power gamer thrives on gaining levels and loves the cool abilities that come with those levels. S/he defeats monsters to take their stuff and use that stuff against future enemies. The story and roleplaying are secondary to action and awesome abilities and magic items.Most players have a little power gamer in them. A couple of the core elements of fun in the D&D game are the accumulation of power and the use of that power to accomplish astonishing deeds. Nothing is wrong with enjoying that in the game). According to the additional points in 4e on Power Gamers, he or she optimizes character attributes for combat performance.  This, however, is not necessarily true.  Power Gamer, like Butt-Kicker, is a motivation and need not optimize as neither definition requires optimization- espcially, for combat. If the campaign is not heavy in combat, an opitmizing Power Gamer will optimize toward something else. More imporantly, both definitions define the Power Gamer as being motivated by playing a powerful character or accumulating power. Playing a powerful character can involve a player requiring that a PC have the minimum competence level of a SWAT officer or Olympic Athlete (or some other minimum standard) to be playable which may entail the need for optimization. Then again, a Power Gamer, as noted above, can simply be someone playing with an emphasis upon the cycle of leveling, gaining cool powers, and the accumulation of power which needs no engagement in optimization. Therefore, optimization is an optional tool in which many Power Gamers engage, because it is useful for their motivation/goal for playing.Method Actor (4e Actor)You think that gaming is a form of creative expression. You may view rules as, at best, a necessary evil, preferring sessions where the dice never come out of the bag. You enjoy situations that test or deepen your character's personality traits.(4e Actor: The actor likes to pretend to be her/his character. S/he emphasizes character development that has nothing to do with numbers and powers, trying to make her/his character seem to be a real person in the fantasy world. S/he enjoys interacting with the rest of the group, with characters and monsters in the game world, and with the fantasy world in general by speaking “in character” and describing her/his character’s actions in the first person.The actor values narrative game elements over mechanical ones. Unlike the storyteller, s/he values her/his character’s personality and motivations over other story elements.)I agree for the most part. However, the few players leaning heavily toward method actors that I have seen build characters built characters that mechanicall reflect the character they want to play. They may have preferred that the dice not come out, but they wanted their character to perform appropriately for the character envisioned  by them when the dice hit the table (perhaps this has to do with having at least power gamer in them even if it is low).Specialist (no 4e equivalent)You favor a particular character type that you play in most campaigns you're involved in. Ninjas are quite popular. You want the rules to support your favorite kind of character, but otherwise, it's not a big deal. And, you want to be able to do your cool things in a game, like climbing on walls.In my experience, this type of player tends to emphasize one or more skills. However, depending upon the player, class, and edition of D&D, combat may or may not also be important.StorytellerYou're more inclined toward the role playing side of the equation and less interested in numbers or experience points. You're quick to compromise if you can help move the story forward, and get bored when the game slows down for a long planning session. You want to play out a story that moves like it's orchestrated by a skilled novelist or film director.(4e Storyteller: The storyteller is a player who prefers the narrative of the game to individual character motivations and personality. This player sees the game as an ongoing chronicle of events in the fantasy world, and s/he wants to see where the tale goes. For the storyteller, the rules are there to support the game’s ongoing story. S/he believes that when the rules get in the way, the narrative should win. Compromise for the sake of the story is more important than individual character motivations.)According to 4e, Storytellers come up with elaborate backgrounds and want their characters to fit in the setting. My own experience with Storytellers is that they often have a different type of optimization from Butt-Kicker, Power Gamer, and even Specialists  It is often not seen as optimization, because it is not directed toward combat efficiency or accumulating power. Instead, it is directed toward a mechanical realization of the character they envision and takes into account background and fitting the character into the world. Also, the degree of optimization varies by the amount of time fine tuning the character's build with various options.I have also seen Method Actors and Explorers (see below), whom have a heavy overlap with the Storyteller (and one another) take a similar approach,. As I noted above under Method Actor, perhaps this has to do with having at least some rating in Power Gamer (or Butt-KIcker) even if minimal. Or, perhaps, it is wanting to see the outcome they envision best happening when the dice hit the table.  Regardless, this form of optimization can be disrupting to a table of Butt-kickers or Power Gamers (both of whom may consider the character as dead weight) just as Butt-Kickers and Power Gamers can be disruptive at other tables.Tactician (4e Thinker)You're probably a military buff who wants to have the chance to think through complex problems. You want the rules, and your GM's interpretation of them, to match up what happens in the real world or at least be consistant. You want challenging yet logical obstacles to overcome.(4e Thinker: A thinker likes to make careful choices, reflecting on challenges and the best way to overcome them. S/he also enjoys her/himself most when her/his planning results in success with minimal risk and use of resources. Solving a challenge in a creative way is more important to the thinker than character power or roleplaying issues. In fact, the thinker might prefer sound tactics to acting in character or straightforward, brute force battle.)Casual Gamer (4e Watcher)You generally get left out when people talk about gamer types, but there's usually one in each game. You tend to be low key and come to hang out with your friends. But, you fill a very important and often underappreciated role of taking on the job nobody else jumps up at. And, typically, you also help to balance out some of the stronger personalities in the group. Good on you!(4e Watcher: A watcher is a casual player who comes to the game because s/he wants to be part of the social event. A watcher might be shy or just really laid back. S/he wants to participate, but s/he doesn’t really care if s/he’s deeply immersed, and he doesn’t want to be assertive or too involved in the details of the game, rules, or story. S/he enjoys the game by being part of a social circle.)I don't know how it holds up among anyone else's experience, but, in my experience, the Casual Gamer optimizes the least. They don't put as much thought into the character and may assign the highest stat (or stats) into their class's main associated ability score(s). They might take a skill or proficiency that is expected (initially, because other players tell them to do so.While not true for all casual gamers that I have encountered (some even become great players), I find that they can often be as disruptive to the game as anyone optimizing for the wrong table. The girlfriend or boyfriend might be distracting to get their partner's attention. Some whom are there just there to hangout may become instigators, because they are not there for the game. Others are not interested at all in the game and have to be prompted to refocus thier attention. ). 4e  identifies two other player types not found in Good GamemasteringExplorerAn explorer loves to see new places in the fantasy world and to meet the residents of such places, fair and foul. All the explorer needs is the promise of an interesting locale or different culture, and off she goes to see that place.The explorer wants to experience the wonders the game world has to offer. S/he also wants to know that there’s more out there to find. S/he presses for details: proper names of characters and places, descriptions of the environment, and some idea of what’s over the next hill. She’s sometimes interested in the adventure plot and her/his character’s motivations. (The explorer is close kin to both the actor and the storyteller.) The wonder of new discoveries is what is key to keeping the explorer happy.InstigatorAn instigator enjoys making things happen. S/he has no patience for careful planning or deliberation. S/he’ll open an obviously trapped chest “just to see what happens.” She provokes authority figures and opens dungeon doors to bring more monsters into an already difficult fight. The instigator loves the vicarious thrill of taking enormous risks and sometimes just making bad choices.The instigator can be disruptive, but s/he can also be a lot of fun for the other players. Things rarely grind to a halt with an instigator in the group, and the stories that get retold after the game session often revolve around whatever crazy thing the instigator did this week.Now back to the OPs issue and the relationship between  "player types" and optimization?  I suspect the OPs optimizers also happen to be Butt-Kicker and/or Power Gamers, who place a high emphasis Power Gamer and Combat compared to the DM and group.(edited: I tried to clean up some of the spelling and grammar issues. However, as when I typed my original post,I am doing this, essentially, "half-blind" so I am sure that I did not catch everything).</blockquote>

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