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Dealing with Unnecessary Classes
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<blockquote data-quote="Dannyl" data-source="post: 6139906" data-attributes="member: 6747102"><p>Thank you for your replies, both of you, though I am a little baffled by this comment here. Not sure what it has to do with anything I said. For the background of my group, yes, I am the DM of my crew but I do not force my changes upon them, nor do I reserve the right for creative changes or additions to the game. If a player comes to me, saying they have come up with a cool new idea for a class, paragon path, a spell or a ritual, I will happily tell him to go for it. I will naturally review the final product and decline if I feel it is not suitable, as in too powerful, etc. In which case I give him suggestions how to fix it and wait until he comes back with another iteration.</p><p></p><p>The very purpose for this change, that I am planning, is to remove restrictions from the 4E D&D. I say 4E because that is the system we are currently using and which I think is best suited, from all the D&D variants. As it stands, the system restricts creative character creation and sets a lot of unnecessary demands upon the classes. E.g. the whole striker, controller, leader, and defender role division, which I think is the single most horrid design decisions WotC has ever made.</p><p></p><p>Such a role should be born from the choice of feats, class features, spells (aka powers) and playstyle. Not forced upon classes. E.g. I could very well design a wizard defender and basically any class has the capability to be a leader.</p><p></p><p>I do like the suggestion of progression through skills. I used to play Cult and have been looking at Mage the Awakening with rising interest, as they are / were systems where character progression was not a matter of level but what skills you picked and how many points you allocated to them.</p><p></p><p>But alas, D&D does not convert easily to that so it is not an option.</p><p></p><p></p><p>True, though problem-solving is not limited to class, is it? Any class is or should be capable of problem solving. The sword or spell is there simply so you can kill the stuff that wants to kill you. However, I do have to admit that the kind of problem-solving is not a big feature in D&D type systems because it uses a skill system that is utterly uninteresting or exciting. Especially in 4E where every trained skill is at the same uniformed level.</p><p></p><p>Here is where I would really like to add a new, better skill system that actually lets you allocate points into a wide range of skills, letting you excel at specific tasks, instead of letting you literally auto-win if you have a particular skill trained.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I very much agree and this sort of gave me an idea to work with. You are right in that the more flexibility in character design you have the more vulnerable the system is to abuse. But I am fairly certain, especially if I use 4E as a starting point, I could make it very difficult to abuse.</p><p></p><p>This is the principle idea:</p><p></p><p>Upon character creation, first thing you choose is your power source. Lets call them martial and magic, for now. This signifies the type of character you are making; martial for melee or physical weapons type character (e.g. fighter, ranger, rogue) and magic for spellcaster (wizard, cleric, druid).</p><p></p><p>Next, like always, you allocate stats to reflect your choice of power source. Next you choose race and all that stuff, and then you pick your class features. Imagine class features like Channel Divinity, Aegis of Shielding (swordmage from FR), Sneak Attack, and so on and so forth, all in one big pool. You would maybe be allowed to pick 1-2 at 1st level and more down the path as you level up.</p><p></p><p>After that you pick your feats, skills, and powers / spells. All powers (including prayers, spells, exploits, etc.) are all in a single pool. Martial power source gives you access to martial powers and magic for magic. If, like so many D&D players do, you like to keep divine, arcane, and psionic abilities separate, you could further divide magic into those three power sources. Though I do not think it is necessary. Particularly in 4E where every class already has the capability to use powers that invoke healing surges.</p><p></p><p>That is the essential system that removes classes and all their restrictions and lets you, basically, design whatever type of character you want and it would also be fairly balanced, since class features and powers have universal pools where you can easily balance them together. 4E already does a very good job of that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dannyl, post: 6139906, member: 6747102"] Thank you for your replies, both of you, though I am a little baffled by this comment here. Not sure what it has to do with anything I said. For the background of my group, yes, I am the DM of my crew but I do not force my changes upon them, nor do I reserve the right for creative changes or additions to the game. If a player comes to me, saying they have come up with a cool new idea for a class, paragon path, a spell or a ritual, I will happily tell him to go for it. I will naturally review the final product and decline if I feel it is not suitable, as in too powerful, etc. In which case I give him suggestions how to fix it and wait until he comes back with another iteration. The very purpose for this change, that I am planning, is to remove restrictions from the 4E D&D. I say 4E because that is the system we are currently using and which I think is best suited, from all the D&D variants. As it stands, the system restricts creative character creation and sets a lot of unnecessary demands upon the classes. E.g. the whole striker, controller, leader, and defender role division, which I think is the single most horrid design decisions WotC has ever made. Such a role should be born from the choice of feats, class features, spells (aka powers) and playstyle. Not forced upon classes. E.g. I could very well design a wizard defender and basically any class has the capability to be a leader. I do like the suggestion of progression through skills. I used to play Cult and have been looking at Mage the Awakening with rising interest, as they are / were systems where character progression was not a matter of level but what skills you picked and how many points you allocated to them. But alas, D&D does not convert easily to that so it is not an option. True, though problem-solving is not limited to class, is it? Any class is or should be capable of problem solving. The sword or spell is there simply so you can kill the stuff that wants to kill you. However, I do have to admit that the kind of problem-solving is not a big feature in D&D type systems because it uses a skill system that is utterly uninteresting or exciting. Especially in 4E where every trained skill is at the same uniformed level. Here is where I would really like to add a new, better skill system that actually lets you allocate points into a wide range of skills, letting you excel at specific tasks, instead of letting you literally auto-win if you have a particular skill trained. I very much agree and this sort of gave me an idea to work with. You are right in that the more flexibility in character design you have the more vulnerable the system is to abuse. But I am fairly certain, especially if I use 4E as a starting point, I could make it very difficult to abuse. This is the principle idea: Upon character creation, first thing you choose is your power source. Lets call them martial and magic, for now. This signifies the type of character you are making; martial for melee or physical weapons type character (e.g. fighter, ranger, rogue) and magic for spellcaster (wizard, cleric, druid). Next, like always, you allocate stats to reflect your choice of power source. Next you choose race and all that stuff, and then you pick your class features. Imagine class features like Channel Divinity, Aegis of Shielding (swordmage from FR), Sneak Attack, and so on and so forth, all in one big pool. You would maybe be allowed to pick 1-2 at 1st level and more down the path as you level up. After that you pick your feats, skills, and powers / spells. All powers (including prayers, spells, exploits, etc.) are all in a single pool. Martial power source gives you access to martial powers and magic for magic. If, like so many D&D players do, you like to keep divine, arcane, and psionic abilities separate, you could further divide magic into those three power sources. Though I do not think it is necessary. Particularly in 4E where every class already has the capability to use powers that invoke healing surges. That is the essential system that removes classes and all their restrictions and lets you, basically, design whatever type of character you want and it would also be fairly balanced, since class features and powers have universal pools where you can easily balance them together. 4E already does a very good job of that. [/QUOTE]
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