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<blockquote data-quote="P1NBACK" data-source="post: 5765755" data-attributes="member: 83768"><p>I hate to pick on you, TheFindus, but your answers are just about the opposite of what I want. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>4E is getting its ass handed to it by Pathfinder and other RPGs. I'm not saying rush a product out of the door, but day-by-day I hear about more and more people switching to Pathfinder. </p><p></p><p>Me personally, I don't play either 4E or Pathfinder at this point. I've gone back to old school D&D (via clones), so I don't really have a stake in either system. What I see though is 4E continually losing ground. If that continues, it'll become harder and harder for 5E to pull players away from those ongoing games. I don't think WotC = D&D means much anymore. Hell, I've introduced people to "D&D" via playing games like <a href="http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/" target="_blank">Lamentations of the Flame Princess</a> and <a href="http://www.autarch.co/" target="_blank">Adventurer Conqueror King</a>. So, the actual mechanics of 4E at this point are so far from what a lot of people think of when they think of "D&D" that I don't think there's any reason to latch onto the system as it stands. </p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>No. I don't want balanced classes. What I want are classes that tilt against each other and nudge each other and fill different gaps in the play dynamic. </p><p></p><p>There's something interesting I've noticed about playing old school D&D and it's that the problem stemmed more from changes to what came before and leaving other things the same than from how things actually were from the get-go. </p><p></p><p>3E mucked this up quite a bit. For example, people decry Wizards as being "too powerful" in 3E. Well, there's a reason for that, and it's not because Fighters didn't have spells like in 4E. It's because 3E took all the good stuff Wizards had from previous editions and stripped away all the limitations. </p><p></p><p>Then, tack on the fact that the high-level Fighters lost their strongholds and armies and 3E replaced them with "bonus feats" and suddenly you have a stark contrast between the two in power level. </p><p></p><p>There's a dynamic that can't be attained from "balanced" classes. And, the only reason you would need them to be balanced is if your game was <em>only </em>about combat. </p><p></p><p>Classes need to fill different voids, for different styles of players and personalities. There is more to the game than combat, and classes enable those players who enjoy the other things to excel in those areas. </p><p></p><p>Balance has nothing to do with that. So, why do we need it? </p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree, but I don't think magical items should be "special powers" either. I think magic should be dark, mysterious, dangerous and powerful. </p><p></p><p>A character should think twice every time they plan to use a magical item. They should give the player an edge, but be risky or have some sort of fallout. Using a magical item should be a hard choice. </p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh man, no way. If we have to <em>rely on digital technology </em>then the game is too complex already. I want a basic game I can play pickup games with by grabbing the box off the shelf when family members are over and want to give it a shot. </p><p></p><p>I want to be able to roll up characters in 5 minutes <em>using dice, pencil and paper </em>only and get into the game with minimal prep time. </p><p></p><p>If I need some online program or database software to manage all the options and choices, you've already lost me and those potential players who might actually try the game at family gatherings. I want to be able to say, "Yeah, you guys wanna try it?" and grab the box off the shelf after explaining what D&D is at a party and get playing right away. Instead of, "Well, we can play next Sunday - it'll take some time to go over character creation and all that...." </p><p></p><p>Screw that. By next Sunday those people will have forgotten all about D&D and I'm not interested in trying to wrangle them into the game when they've already lost interest. </p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>This is what killed 4E for me. Dissociating mechanics from the fiction <em>even more so </em>would not be my ideal version of D&D. </p><p></p><p>In fact, let's go back the other way. Let's design this game with the fiction <em>first </em>and mechanics to supplement that. </p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>I want tools that help inspire me to come up with my own goodness. If I download something from WotC's site, I want it to be environments and sites that are more akin to sandboxes with tons of little tidbits of things I can draw from and use. </p><p></p><p>Published adventures are of no use to me. I want resources, inspiration and monsters, magical items and exotic locales that inspire my imagination. I don't want a story written for me that I have to lure my players through.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="P1NBACK, post: 5765755, member: 83768"] I hate to pick on you, TheFindus, but your answers are just about the opposite of what I want. 4E is getting its ass handed to it by Pathfinder and other RPGs. I'm not saying rush a product out of the door, but day-by-day I hear about more and more people switching to Pathfinder. Me personally, I don't play either 4E or Pathfinder at this point. I've gone back to old school D&D (via clones), so I don't really have a stake in either system. What I see though is 4E continually losing ground. If that continues, it'll become harder and harder for 5E to pull players away from those ongoing games. I don't think WotC = D&D means much anymore. Hell, I've introduced people to "D&D" via playing games like [URL="http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/"]Lamentations of the Flame Princess[/URL] and [URL="http://www.autarch.co/"]Adventurer Conqueror King[/URL]. So, the actual mechanics of 4E at this point are so far from what a lot of people think of when they think of "D&D" that I don't think there's any reason to latch onto the system as it stands. No. I don't want balanced classes. What I want are classes that tilt against each other and nudge each other and fill different gaps in the play dynamic. There's something interesting I've noticed about playing old school D&D and it's that the problem stemmed more from changes to what came before and leaving other things the same than from how things actually were from the get-go. 3E mucked this up quite a bit. For example, people decry Wizards as being "too powerful" in 3E. Well, there's a reason for that, and it's not because Fighters didn't have spells like in 4E. It's because 3E took all the good stuff Wizards had from previous editions and stripped away all the limitations. Then, tack on the fact that the high-level Fighters lost their strongholds and armies and 3E replaced them with "bonus feats" and suddenly you have a stark contrast between the two in power level. There's a dynamic that can't be attained from "balanced" classes. And, the only reason you would need them to be balanced is if your game was [I]only [/I]about combat. Classes need to fill different voids, for different styles of players and personalities. There is more to the game than combat, and classes enable those players who enjoy the other things to excel in those areas. Balance has nothing to do with that. So, why do we need it? I agree, but I don't think magical items should be "special powers" either. I think magic should be dark, mysterious, dangerous and powerful. A character should think twice every time they plan to use a magical item. They should give the player an edge, but be risky or have some sort of fallout. Using a magical item should be a hard choice. Oh man, no way. If we have to [I]rely on digital technology [/I]then the game is too complex already. I want a basic game I can play pickup games with by grabbing the box off the shelf when family members are over and want to give it a shot. I want to be able to roll up characters in 5 minutes [I]using dice, pencil and paper [/I]only and get into the game with minimal prep time. If I need some online program or database software to manage all the options and choices, you've already lost me and those potential players who might actually try the game at family gatherings. I want to be able to say, "Yeah, you guys wanna try it?" and grab the box off the shelf after explaining what D&D is at a party and get playing right away. Instead of, "Well, we can play next Sunday - it'll take some time to go over character creation and all that...." Screw that. By next Sunday those people will have forgotten all about D&D and I'm not interested in trying to wrangle them into the game when they've already lost interest. This is what killed 4E for me. Dissociating mechanics from the fiction [I]even more so [/I]would not be my ideal version of D&D. In fact, let's go back the other way. Let's design this game with the fiction [I]first [/I]and mechanics to supplement that. I want tools that help inspire me to come up with my own goodness. If I download something from WotC's site, I want it to be environments and sites that are more akin to sandboxes with tons of little tidbits of things I can draw from and use. Published adventures are of no use to me. I want resources, inspiration and monsters, magical items and exotic locales that inspire my imagination. I don't want a story written for me that I have to lure my players through. [/QUOTE]
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