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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kaomera" data-source="post: 5492237" data-attributes="member: 38357">Well, to me they seem like they didn't accomplish what they set out to accomplish. "Failed concept" is just my opinion of them, I don't have huge amounts of experience with the classes (I doubt I'll ever get to play any of them, especially since I have at least a half-dozen character concepts from the PHB1 launch that I haven't gotten to try yet), and I'm more than willing to accept that they are just awesome for some other players.This is the core issue for me. Personally I like some of the PHB3 class fluff, but I don't much care for the extra mechanical complexity - I've got other things I like to focus my attention on when I'm at the table. I can see how some players do, and in fact I can see that complexity being a major draw in and of itself. In fact I think that adding complexity was really one of the goals of the PHB3 classes, and that's where I find that they are "failed concepts".First of all, that added complexity comes at the cost of being a liability when some players get their hands on these classes. IMO all it really takes to manage such a character is to some extra organization and avoiding splitting your concentration too much. But there are enough players who won't meet that need that I think that the potential issue is significant. And it isn't just a matter of the player in question dealing with the issue in all cases - it's a PHB2 class, but the Shaman is an example of this. Playing with a Shaman as leader you need to consider the extra terrain that the spirit companion represents...Even then I could deal with it (in small doses - I'm not sure I'd want 3 or 4 players in a party that take 10+ minute turns), but I've found that I just feel like these classes could be any other class of the same role. They don't seem to add anything much for anyone else at the table, and when you're asking me to deal with your added complexity I think that's kind of a problem.Mind you, most players should be able to handle this without anyone else even noticing. I have an Ardent in my Dark Sun group, and the only clue that he's not playing any other leader is when he fiddles with the beads he uses to track power points, and in fact he's the fastest player at the table. But if I'm sitting on my hands while a player takes a long pause to consider his options for the fourth or fifth time in a round, I think that's an issue.And there's one other thing, related to adding more support for these classes - if WotC couldn't find enough new stuff to make them really unique and interesting within the core PHB3 release, I kind of think that new material would just end up being even more generic. I think there is kind of a limited space that the designers are working in, unless they start doing stuff like inventing new conditions or mixing up the roles or something.</blockquote>

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