Death is Final

[Chris_Nightwing]

Hear me out!

Back in the mists of time, as the game was forming, I can easily imagine that there was a complete absence of Resurrection/Raise Dead/Reincarnation spells. Given how deadly the earlier editions were, I would have either fudged rolls to avoid too much character death, or have death as an acceptable part of adventuring (see Call of Cthulhu), or perhaps allow for some epic quest to bring back an important character to life.

I can see that particularly dogmatic characters (or players) might want life-restoring abilities written down in a clear and transparent manner. This might have led to spells, which over time have become normal, and indeed very much available to all comers.

I wonder what the opinion of this board might be then, if I suggested we removed all codified forms of returning characters from the dead. If, instead, death was left as a mystery, up to the DM or group. The default position would become 'Death is Final', with optional suggestions as to how dead characters might return.

Why not the present system? After all, a character is penalised for a while, and it costs the party some of their wealth. Quite simply because it's the difficult 'middle ground' (referred to by Morrus in his piece on races) that satisfies, but does not complete this important part of the game. If a player wants their character back in all their glory, then I say it's up to them to negotiate with the DM what this will cost them (if anything - were they reckless enough to deserve it?). Who hasn't seen Mighty Fighter's twin brother, who shared every trait of his brother, join the party after a nasty character death? Let players who don't care about the reason for their return come back, and let those that do use the opportunity. Maybe they play a temporary character on a quest to bring back their original character (for a nice change). Maybe they come back with a debt to pay, or some crippling penalty to work off. Those that want to roleplay can really enjoy themselves in death when the system doesn't make it trivial for their return. Those that don't may as well just have not died.

That's my argument, let me hear yours! Cool death stories welcome!

 

[Lord Zack]

The spell Raise Dead was first introduced in Volume 1 of the Original D&D boxed set. So it's always been a part of the game since it was first sold. At what point it became available in the original Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaigns I'm not sure.

Now I have a very simple solution to the problem of "Bob the Fighter II". Every character starts at first level. Yes, that's right, every character. However, I allow for multiple characters per player and am attempting to find enough players that there will be both low level and higher level characters in the campaign (likely not adventuring at the same time, though). Furthermore, the player, if they have recruited a henchman, may opt to make the henchman they're new PC instead of starting from scratch.

 

[Ramaster]

It would appear to me that they are going the other way around. I mean, that the raise dead spells are in by default and then you have a "deadly" module that removes them, makes them higher level, makes them really expensive, etc...

Probably the default will be something similar to 4e/3.5e. Boring answer, I know, but the most likely scenario, IMO

 

[Grazzt]

Hear me out!
That's my argument, let me hear yours! Cool death stories welcome!

I'm honestly good either way. Let death be final with ways to bring back the dead as optional, or make the rules core. Either way I can use or ignore them. I'd imagine there would be less panic and less screaming if the rules for raising the dead are core.

Death in my campaign is mostly final in that raise dead magic is a ritual and requires a blood sacrifice (life for a life type stuff); also returning requires a Fort save ala Resurrection Survival from 1e.

Death stories:
#1- My brother's 1e paladin (rolled fairly, one of the only times I ever saw that happen, and one of the few paladins we ever had in a 1e game).... swallowed by a remorhaz, cut out after it was killed, needed like a 95% or something or less on Res Survival and rolled 100. Dead. Forever. We were all in shock, then laughed and moved on. We still talk about it to this day.

#2 - Party is setting up to defeat demonic dragon (DemoDragon from the cartoon actually). Magic-user is preparing magic + amulet for ritual. Dragon breathes lightning at him. Fighter jumps in front of magic-user, absorbs full blast of bolt and dies. Magic-user finishes spell, destroys Demodragon. Fighter's Will (remember those on the back of the 1e character sheets?) said "no resurrection magic" so the party carried his body back to town and laid it to rest.

There are several others too. Most of them are memorable for one reason or another. Most are still talked about sometimes today (as I have some of the same players now as I did 20+ years ago).

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

The spell Raise Dead was first introduced in Volume 1 of the Original D&D boxed set. So it's always been a part of the game since it was first sold. At what point it became available in the original Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaigns I'm not sure.

Now I have a very simple solution to the problem of "Bob the Fighter II". Every character starts at first level. Yes, that's right, every character. However, I allow for multiple characters per player and am attempting to find enough players that there will be both low level and higher level characters in the campaign (likely not adventuring at the same time, though). Furthermore, the player, if they have recruited a henchman, may opt to make the henchman they're new PC instead of starting from scratch.

You bring up a very good point! I remember when I started playing it was acceptable to start at a lower level than the rest of the party (though not at level 1) - this was the punishment for dying. Of course, it's near impossible to maintain a level 1 character in a higher level game in any edition. I wonder if the math is flat enough whether this might be acceptable again.

 

[Endur]

Every edition seems to deal with death differently.

1e had raise, etc. But it was expensive and you had to survive a system shock roll (which meant you had to have high con). You also lost a con point, which potentially led to lost hit points, lower system shock, etc. There was a maximum number of times you could be brought back based on con. Also lots of random reincarnation races (coming back as a giant, etc.).

3e had cost and losing a level when being brought back. Which meant 3e was cheaper overall than 1e. Smaller subset of random reincarnation races.

4e coming back from the dead is even more efficient than 3e.

Part of it comes down to frequency, I suppose. How often do you want a character to be able to return to life? Once per adventuring career? Zero times? Once a week?

I remember in AD&D having a character die twice in an hour.

 

[KesselZero]

I don't usually want death to be final final, so there should at least be guidance on how to avoid those rip-up-your-character-sheet-and-sit-the-rest-of-the-night-out moments. I do hope that they flatten the power curve so bringing a 1st-level new character in, which has always been what I do if players don't want to get rezzed, is more doable. I also hope that character creation is easy enough that a player can roll up a new PC at the table, or at least won't have to spend tons of time on it at home.

I also love making resurrection part of the story. When I was a kid I had a long-running 2e thief whom I adored, but who got killed. The DM let him get rezzed, but he somehow ended up sharing a brain with a stupid barbarian. Upon coming back to life my PC was compelled to search out this barbarian's grave and recover his beloved club Orcbasher, and for the rest of his life the poor thief was struggling with this voice in his head that just wanted him to go around assaulting orcs all the time.

In my current campaign, I had a PC who was the lone survivor of a town destroyed by an evil empire's navy. The party came up against the spirit of the captain who led the raid, and so the PC rushed into battle with him-- and was promptly killed dead. I told the player that until the PC could get rezzed, he could roll up the same character as a Revenant and play that, to represent his restless spirit searching for vengeance and refusing to die in such a way.

 

[the Jester]

This is fine for certain playstyles, but the "death is a speedbump" players with "by the book" dms would hate it.

I think it's much more effective for the game to lay out several styles of resurrection and let the dm choose. Like, in optional modules or something. You know, like all the information we have on 5e indicates we're going to get.

 

[Lord Zack]

You bring up a very good point! I remember when I started playing it was acceptable to start at a lower level than the rest of the party (though not at level 1) - this was the punishment for dying. Of course, it's near impossible to maintain a level 1 character in a higher level game in any edition. I wonder if the math is flat enough whether this might be acceptable again.

Well thing is that the construct of the adventuring party will be a temporary one in this campaign. A new party will be formed every session from whomever is there to play. I'm looking to get more than just the 3-6 players that most groups consist of, so that if a player does opt to start a new character, that character will likely have other PCs around his level to adventure with.

 

[Sunseeker]

Death never mattered. Why? Because the players don't die. So unless you're going to kick Bob out of the game, he's gonna be there next week playing Jane the Ranger since his Randy the Barbarian died last session.

Don't make death matter by making it harder for people to play their characters. Make death matter by giving it value within the game. Hold a funeral for Randy, get the King to make a nice little speech(since Randy's death saved him and his Frilly Kingdom), maybe get the princess to admit she was madly in love with him but could never be with a poor adventurer(I mean, we've got more gold than the king, but it's about land ownership and that's a lineage issue).

If you want death to matter, make it matter, don't just make your players scared to be adventurous because they'll risk losing a character they highly valued.