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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 9471739" data-attributes="member: 4937">Challenge is a common aesthetic of play, but it's not actually directly related to chance of failure.&nbsp;&nbsp; I grant that the possibility of failure is necessary for challenge, but because of the way trad RPGs play with heavy reliance on dice and on arbitrary GM arbitration, you can have a whole lot of character deaths and never support the aesthetic of challenge at all.As for what most players want, it's almost always necessary to state this as &quot;most players I've encountered&quot; since the spectrum of players out there is beyond your ability to evaluate.&nbsp; My experience is that the vast majority of players want a challenge, and only a minority are happy with fantasy as an aesthetic of play without challenge, such as your hypothetical player who has killed every color dragon.I'd caution you to avoid assuming that there is one right way to play.&nbsp; Different tables enjoy different aesthetics of play.&nbsp; One of the best tables I played at had relatively high fantasy aesthetic support to the point that it would have struck me as a 'Monte Hall' based on my prior aesthetics and experience, but which made up for its number inflation and high power levels by having strong agency and strong narratives.&nbsp; Showcasing the PC as fantasy superhero was part of the conscious decision of that table.And even at that player, we really only had one player who I thought had a dysfunctional relationship to challenge aesthetics and no one who didn't want to be challenged.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 9471739, member: 4937"] Challenge is a common aesthetic of play, but it's not actually directly related to chance of failure. I grant that the possibility of failure is necessary for challenge, but because of the way trad RPGs play with heavy reliance on dice and on arbitrary GM arbitration, you can have a whole lot of character deaths and never support the aesthetic of challenge at all. As for what most players want, it's almost always necessary to state this as "most players I've encountered" since the spectrum of players out there is beyond your ability to evaluate. My experience is that the vast majority of players want a challenge, and only a minority are happy with fantasy as an aesthetic of play without challenge, such as your hypothetical player who has killed every color dragon. I'd caution you to avoid assuming that there is one right way to play. Different tables enjoy different aesthetics of play. One of the best tables I played at had relatively high fantasy aesthetic support to the point that it would have struck me as a 'Monte Hall' based on my prior aesthetics and experience, but which made up for its number inflation and high power levels by having strong agency and strong narratives. Showcasing the PC as fantasy superhero was part of the conscious decision of that table. And even at that player, we really only had one player who I thought had a dysfunctional relationship to challenge aesthetics and no one who didn't want to be challenged. [/QUOTE]

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