Death Penalties

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Many RPGs penalize a new character after death - in other words, if your character dies then the replacement is a lower level or has some other disadvantages depending on the system.

For example, I always used to have new D&D characters be one level below the lowest level party member. I don't do that these days as it just makes balancing encounters more effort for me.

What are your feelings on death penalties in RPGs?
 

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Cause I don't like resurrection, death is enough of a penalty for the player. No need to increase it by giving him a lower level character.
 

The usual logic is that if there is no consequence to death, then players won't try to avoid it. And I suppose if your group has players who need a threat of power loss to keep them away from death, then by all means use such penalties. My players are generally attached enough to their characters that they just don't want to lose them, and that's enough to keep them playing smart, so I haven't needed death penalties.

I also find that such penalties hurt the other players almost as much as the target, what with one of the team being somewhat sub-par with the penalty. So, on the whole, I haven't been a fan for mechanical penalties for character death for quite a while.

Now, putting a plot hook into death is another matter entirely. In my D&D games, if you get raised, expect to come back with a geas from the god who's responsible for your return. If you're bringing in a new character, expect to come in with hooks to different parts of the game world, and so on.
 

Now, putting a plot hook into death is another matter entirely. In my D&D games, if you get raised, expect to come back with a geas from the god who's responsible for your return. If you're bringing in a new character, expect to come in with hooks to different parts of the game world, and so on.

To be fair, those are penalties as well- they DO restrict player choice, etc.- but they have the benefit of forwarding the campaign.

As for the lower level new PCs, I find that in most level-based games, that is a self-correcting problem: either the lower PC advances more quickly (because he needs comparatively little XP to advance) and catches up, or others in the party die. Eventually, most of the party is in synch pretty soon.

Personally, I don't do death penalties, though.
 

To be fair, those are penalties as well- they DO restrict player choice, etc.- but they have the benefit of forwarding the campaign.

The geas is a short term restriction, yes. But I'm a GM, I do restrict player choices on a daily basis, based on the world. If you don't have magic, you can't just choose to fly, either, but I don't hear anyone complain about that. Am I constantly penalizing them? No. So not all restrictions of player choices are penalties.

As for the other - while "you can't come in with the same hooks into the same plots" is a restriction on the player's choices, it is on their choice of backstory, not a restriction on their future actions. If that's counted as a penalty, then I think we have some fundamental difference on what constitutes a "penalty"

As for the lower level new PCs, I find that in most level-based games, that is a self-correcting problem: either the lower PC advances more quickly (because he needs comparatively little XP to advance) and catches up, or others in the party die. Eventually, most of the party is in synch pretty soon.

I played in one campaign in which the GM was using the old standard of "new characters enter the game at 1st level", and the party couldn't get raises. That happened once,. Then another character died trying to protect the 1st level character. Then another died trying to protect the *two* weak links... So, sure they got in synch, after a full party turnover and effectively losing 5 levels, dropping from 10th to 5th. Not exactly fun.
 

I tend to think the death is penalty enough. They have to roll up a new character as their old one bit it.

If they are tired of a character and just want to roll up a new one, I would let them. I would not have a problem letting them have their old character die in some spectacular way.
 

New Characters for Existing Players

My current approach--developed over time through established/official guidelines, experimentation, feedback and also seeing articles discussing the subject--is to require that existing players who want new characters whether as voluntary replacements or because of character death to:

- Generate a valid character using approved approaches (incl. standard wealth) whose ECL is, at most, one level less than the party average (or sometimes, one less than the level of the lowest existing character in the party).

- Not make use of the items of the retiring or deceased character (if retiring, that one keeps all that has been earned; if dead, there are donations, and the spreading of the wealth among boon companions) [Of course, by choosing items during build, the new character might be able to trade for a former character's item from the new owner in the party. But basically, a character that stays dead becomes a type of NPC that the DM exercises control over (respecting meta-gaming and inter-player lobbying and discourse)--including disposition of items--unlike a living/active character belonging to a player. And, of course, if the new character could afford the deceased character's items, then they could be willed to them and would be counted as starting wealth at that level.]

- Join the group with an awesome back-story, a fair/legal wealth total, no artifacts, and no epic items (everything else goes according to the value of existing or constructed magic items)

The intention is to welcome abrupt changes within the same campaign (trying different builds), but also to moderate that impulse by setting any such new characters just a little bit behind the others. [But, as we know, some XP award mechanics provide a differential bonus for lower level characters to speed their leveling to correspond to the others.]

The appeal, of course, includes the opportunity to build a "full" character concept at higher-than-first-level with choice of (prestige) classes, skills, feats, (learned) spells, optimizing magic items for a particular archetype (gauntlets of ogre power for melee types, etc.).

New players, in contrast to the above-mentioned level restrictions, are encouraged by being able to custom build (or import valid) characters at the party average ECL or perhaps one more--but if more, then not equal to or greater than the highest existing character level.

BTW, the emphasis on wealth and items (which contribute to "power" and effectiveness--including the very real possibility of outshining the others by raw factors aside from chance and skill) is a big deal to my long-time friends/players--much more than I tend to think about or realize, heh. Yeah, we are all very competitive and that factors into these "cooperative" campaigns.


Penalties for Death (Raise Dead, Resurrection) and Permanent Level Drain

On the subject of character death--including trying to avoid it, and also perhaps managing the perception of the climb back (and its mechanics):

I have been using Sean K. Reynolds' variant called "Slower Dying" to provide more of a chance for the players to moderate the vicissitudes of high-level combat--he explains the rationale in that article.

Also, a quick local scan and Web search did not reveal a source, but I do follow the "death and permanent level drain as continuous level drain penalties until sufficient XP is acquired" approach. As I recall, one compelling rationale is that you don't need to have access to the changes-per-level to reverse them, you just keep the character configuration and apply a new, lasting detrimental effect (including loss of a highest spell, and so on).

This is pertinent in that some players are more willing to continue to play the same character even when drained or revived if they are effectively the same level but need to compensate for a grievous event that makes them weaker until fully recovered (e.g. gain sufficient XP to level again).


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Update: Re-read the OP and, regarding balancing encounters, I actually delved even further into the 3.5 encounter level rules and charts, and have a better handle on the numbers. Nowadays, I can fully expect sparsely populated virtual seats around the table because people are doing other things. One quick response was to state that I run their characters (fairly) as NPC's [not a big chore because of a VTT]. But otherwise, I was always adjusting the EL's up or down depending upon the 2-5+ expected members for a session. The "game must go on" after all!

I would have additional mid-to-lower creatures to bump the EL, or remove some as needed. If it was a solo creature, I had variants according to advancement guidelines. Ahem, I also openly admitted to "buffing" the monsters by giving them HD and commensurate abilities just under the point at which the CR officially bumped, heh.

Sometimes monsters have intel, tactical advantage, operative magic effects and so on to give them an advantage. In contrast, they might be somehow inconvenienced if the effective party level is not a simple '4 characters at level X' calculation.

Also, because I have some favorite (prepared) modules used more than once by the same or different gaming group, I've just resigned myself to having some workable approach for an expected need to adjust EL's on-the-fly, always. Having such in place also facilitates more adlib in-session adjustments according to fluid DM and player co-created narrative.

Ultimately, my engagement with system mechanics is an attempt to be "fair" according the rules-balancing by many great and creative minds doing solo and collaborative work, so that the play experience by competitive and simulation-happy gamers (who nevertheless also have imaginations) will straddle that difficult-to-achieve line of challenge and fulfillment (risk and reward) without becoming annoyingly difficult or else boringly easy. [CRPG's can distill and compress the time required to discover when the game is "won" or "lost" and further interaction therefore becomes uninteresting. My endeavors in RPG'ing seek to--with human interaction--avoid the conditions which lead to such dissatisfaction.]
 
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Character death used to be a rare thing in my games, it's gotten a lot more common since 3E. I generally use the "come back as one level lower", with random item generation - if the player doesn't want/have the money to bring their old character back to life.

And the return is not always by a raise dead or ressurection spell. It's a fantasy world and I've had dead characters come back by a variety of means - including another version of the character arriving from an alternate dimension, "I didn't really die" mysterious death (ala Dragonlance), a spawn-like return from the dead (with fiendish template added), a cloned copy originally sent by the BBEG to sow discord, even the "twin" of the original character show up.
 

...with random item generation...

I quickly thought about my practice of allowing players to choose--rather than randomly determine--items when starting over.

Potential abuse in the form of optimized character builds (especially including specific class-enhancing items and sets) is moderated by the fact that existing players developed over time tend to have acquired some special effects, unofficial items which newly-generated players may not select, AND higher-than-average wealth for their levels!
 

The geas is a short term restriction, yes. But I'm a GM, I do restrict player choices on a daily basis, based on the world. If you don't have magic, you can't just choose to fly, either, but I don't hear anyone complain about that. Am I constantly penalizing them? No. So not all restrictions of player choices are penalties.

As for the other - while "you can't come in with the same hooks into the same plots" is a restriction on the player's choices, it is on their choice of backstory, not a restriction on their future actions. If that's counted as a penalty, then I think we have some fundamental difference on what constitutes a "penalty"

Some would call it a penalty, but I don't. Like you, I see it as similar to a campaign restriction. But not everyone would.


I played in one campaign in which the GM was using the old standard of "new characters enter the game at 1st level", and the party couldn't get raises. That happened once,. Then another character died trying to protect the 1st level character. Then another died trying to protect the *two* weak links... So, sure they got in synch, after a full party turnover and effectively losing 5 levels, dropping from 10th to 5th. Not exactly fun.

IME, it's really campaign & group dependent. The last time it happened in our group, the resultant deaths were largely a comedy of errors. There was much heckling.
 

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