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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tom Strickland" data-source="post: 6228032" data-attributes="member: 6753119">If almost nobody in any group abuses death penalties (to hear it told), let  alone finds occasion to use them in the first place, I say: Let them  stand!  (Nevertheless, 'house rules' will always tweak or dispense with  altogether the disliked bits according to group tastes.)Two thoughts:1. Numerous "older" fantasy, swords & sorcery, and other genres  included gritty tales of wonder and woe that proposed certain  experiences whose depictions may have fallen from favor over time. The  prototypical experience of weakened heroes in the aftermath of tangling  with horrifying undead, or else being imperfect in the aftermath of  being raised (like a Frankenstein's monster perhaps) spoke to the  results of supernatural injuries or recoveries after having died. If the  consequences are "just" variations on a theme of inconvenient encounter  results, there is something perhaps unique lost from the full palette.  This is where discussions of art and science in other threads shed light  on gaming aspects: in this case, the mechanic captures an experiential  process which quite reasonably results in character angst at the  implications.2. Leading to: There is a school of thought which states that excellence  is developed by experience (over time). As contrasting examples: some  universities have a pass/fail only (or even no grade at all) measurement  system, whereas others have some accredited grading scheme. I subscribe  to the theory that including some challenges with terrible consequences  in the full spectrum of possibilities is beneficial to players and  their characters. It is a type of mechanic which ought to be specified  regardless of whether it is actually used. The rules designers could  even specify 2+ levels of consequences and implications in the game for  DM's and players to choose.I am glad the challenges I have faced and even run afoul of included the  potential for serious consequences. The tactical side puts a weighted  value on certain actions, goals, places to visit, spells and items to  select, etc. The role-playing side enjoys a verisimilitude in that--even  though it is fantasy--it is similar enough to familiar concepts of life  and death, risk and reward, failure and consequence, that the struggles  to return can become as sagas because of the difficulties (as when  Cugel is flown away to a distant land, a king is banished from his  throne, a party lands in Limbo due to a misfired spell, and so on). [Or  perhaps more pertinently, when Jack in Jack of Shadows by Roger Zelazny  must fight his way from the dung heap where dark-siders are reincarnated,  past soul-sucking dangers though wastelands patrolled by enemy forces.]There is an entire sub-system of effects, abilities (by certain undead  or extra-planar creatures), magic, and consequences which are bypassed  without the more-serious-than-other-effects of death: requires break  enchantment; requires dispel magic; cannot be raised; cannot be  resurrected; is lost forever... The Sphere of Annihilation.  Stormbringer?! I personally want integrated mechanics which handle certain fictional  narratives. I fully respect when others do not want the same mechanics. But I  appreciate when game designers in their element and according to their  fortes build in something--especially with official or suggested  variants--so it need not be extensively home-brewed.Disclaimers: Also, even prior to reading the recent posts and adding an  additional comment, I thought of mentioning that I have raise dead  magics set at easily a 10x multiple--it is a big deal to choose to do  that. And people do sell and borrow to bring back a treasured character.  Players in my campaigns do not "burn through PC's" at all. They have  bristled in the past at the penalties, but have become better tacticians  by using increasingly effective choices and timings of abilities,  actions, situational awareness, manipulation of opponent motivations and  weaknesses, etc.  And then there is "True Resurrection"!</blockquote>

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