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Message: <blockquote data-quote="fuzzlewump" data-source="post: 6063039" data-attributes="member: 63214">So I went through the rogue's skill tricks in an effort to generate discussion and feedback. I start with a summary, then my comments on problems and possible fixes.Charming PresenceSpend your skill dice to charm a creature if your charisma check succeeds (as the effect, which gives you advantage on social rolls against the creature, and they can’t harm you.) This seems potent, especially at lower levels to get advantage on perhaps an extended argument or negotiation. Problem: At high levels, giving up the skill dice to get advantage may not be worth it. (Best of 2d20 or best of +2d12, assuming trained in the skill.) It doesn’t seem significantly better than just rolling your skill check to persuade or what have you whenever you need to. It seems like you should be able to persuade someone not to harm you as easily as you could use this skill trick. (That is, the DC to charm someone and the DC to make them not want to hurt you right now will probably be similar given a particular circumstance and target.)Fix: Perhaps an extra stipulation in the rules that disallows charisma checks to persuade in combat, but allows it when using this skill trick would make the benefit more clear. Also, allowing you to use your skill dice on the charmed creature would make it a very clear choice for diplomancers.Climb Sheer SurfacesThe result of your skill dice increases the distance in feet you climb, or add a skill die roll to the check result if you needed to make one.Problem: Misnomer? You use the normal climb rules, just either you do it faster or a little better. Nothing really about sheer surfaces.Increases your climb speed by 12 if you roll well and you are level 17+. That’s not very useful, even in those ideal circumstances.You add your skill dice to a check result, but that’s what skill dice already do. One benefit is that you could take this skill trick without taking the climb skill in order to get a ‘free’ skill in climb, but that seems backwards. (I couldn’t find anything saying that you need a particular skill to get a particular skill trick, so it’s a bit strange.)Fix: Possible name change, (Rapid Climb etc). Simplify and increase the effect. Spend your skill dice to climb a wall at your full speed, and add your skill die result to the check if needed. Also, if there any penalties imposed when climbing at some point in the rules (I don’t see any currently,) ignore them.Detect Noise:Spend your skill die to know the location of each creature on the other side of the door within 30 feet, unless they’re trying to be stealthy in which case roll wisdom vs. dexterity as normal. In addition, when you make an attack against an invisible creature that you can hear (but not see, obviously) you can avoid the disadvantage you’d normally get.Problem: Pinpointing creatures behind a door I can’t imagine really being useful. You really just want to know what’s behind the door, not necessarily where they are. It’s possibly helpful if you know they are near or far to the door, but it seems like the normal check would give that information if asked for. The second part seems dandy, though, when it comes up.Fix: Make it more impressive. Assuming no other barriers, you know the location, size, and type of creature on the other side of a barrier within 30 plus your skill dice x 10 in feet. If the DM rules it’s possible, roll an intelligence check to identify the creatures without seeing them.Display DeadlinessKill a creature, spend your skill die to intimidate enemies within 10 feet with a Charisma vs. Wisdom check. This will make them frightened (as the effect, which means they have disadvantage while in line of sight.) Problem:Fix: I like it actually, it’s possibly overpowered, but only in relation to many of the other underwhelming skill tricks. If you kill something in a large group, that could be a lot of things are suffering disadvantage for a turn. More useful for larger groups of smaller things.Distract:Use your action to pick a creature and roll a Charisma vs. Wisdom to grant them disadvantage to attack things other than you.Problem: This is very similar to the ‘Help’ action, where you give an ally advantage with a check, which requires no skill trick. Many DM’s will probably allow you to grant disadvantage with a skill check especially if you use your action on it even in non-distracting situations, making the benefits here dubious.Fix: Whenever making a skill check action, allow distract to be used as a ‘free action.’ Essentially, you have the knack to be especially distracting when doing ‘whatever’ if you want to be, except for attacking (for balance concerns, although maybe it could be allowed.) It’s not perfect, but allows for interesting scenarios where the Rogue is climbing up the wall to the Crystal of Power, but is still offering help to the encounter because the Dark Wizard is distracted by his ascent. The effect could also be used to grant advantage (even outside of encounters too, such as distracting guards so allies can sneak by) to an ally instead of just disadvantage to your enemy.Feint:Use an action and spend your die to choose a creature within 5 feet to make a charisma vs. wisdom and make the next attack roll grant advantage. Problem: This is just the ‘Help’ action, with some added requirements of distance. Perhaps the help action is not meant to be used on attacks, meaning this effect at least fills that niche, but the Help action is listed in the combat section for actions in combat, and the DM Guidelines documents states that attacks are ‘in essence, specialized forms of checks.’ Perhaps the Help or checks section needs clarification.Fix: Make it last until the end of your next turn, and everything in that time that attacks it gets advantage. Sure it’s good, but you’re giving up your (possibly very potent) attack to do it. Also, makes setting up for a sneak attack easier as you don’t have to worry about others attacking and ‘ruining’ it.Gilded TongueSpend your skill die to reroll a charisma check.Problem: Unclear on if you get your skill dice bonus on either the rerolled check or the original check. If not, then it’s unclear on how useful this could be.Fix: Fold this into the Charming Presence skill trick. Or, make a generic skill trick where you can spend your skill dice to reroll any skill check you just failed at (but are trained in), this time without the skill dice. Maybe that’s too good, but this is quite underpowered even in its niche. If this must be its own niche ability, make sure the skill dice applies to both rolls, or allow for extraordinary circumstances, like being able to use a charisma check to convince something that doesn’t understand your language.Great FortitudeAdd the result of your skill die to a strength/constitution saving throw for a reaction.Problem: It doesn’t really seem like a ‘skill trick.’ It’s more like something inherent to the character, like a racial benefit or a feat.Fix: Mechanically it seems solid, those are checks that will come up fairly often, and as a rogue you roll 2 skill dice and take the better of the two. Maybe a fix would be to make it seem more like a skill in its presentation, though I’m at a loss for how to do that.Iron WillAdd the result of a your skill die to wisdom or charisma saving throw for a reaction. Ditto above really, doesn’t seem like a skill check, but is solid for combat and exploration.Master LinguistSpend your skill die to understand the gist of what a creature is saying without knowing its language.Problem: Is this something that only a master linguist can do? I have to do this frequently with people who don’t speak English around where I live. It seems like anyone should be able to attempt to do this. It also suggests the situation, where you’re dealing with things that don’t speak your language but are viable to talk to, is a situation that should happen. These situations have never been fun for me, though at least this skill trick makes it more exciting than ‘check your language list, anyone have Orcish? No? Okay, no one can understand them.’Fix: This check should automatically succeed, or at the very least rules should be presented where the check is usually a hard one but for you it’s easy or some such. (Which it wont be, it’s an intelligence check base DC 15, and you may not get to use your skill dice for it, but that’s unclear. And there’s not really a skill that would be proper to use for it directly.) And, it should allow you to return basic communication back to the creature. I’m surprised it doesn’t have that stipulation at least.In addition, being a master linguist should give you benefits on understanding written language as well, even... magical scrolls???!!MimicSpend your skill die to expertly mimic a creature when disguised as that creature.Problem: Shouldn’t this just be covered in the Disguise and/or Bluff skill? I guess the idea is that even people intimate with the creature could be convinced even when talking to you and looking at you, but that’s not really what it says.Fix: I like the idea, but a more direct mechanical benefit should be made clear. Maybe gives advantage on Charisma checks to disguise yourself or bluff that you are that person. Also it would be interesting if a successful check makes a target ‘unaware’ of you for the purposes of assassination. They let their guard down around what they think is one of their most trusted royal guards, and get stabbed in the back. Of course, you run again into the problem of, should you be able to attempt this anyway? If so, what benefit does this trick give you?Poison UseWhen you apply poison, you add your skill die result to the DC of the saving throw of that poison. And you can’t expose yourself to poison’s effects when applying it.Problem: I couldn’t find a mention of any risk when applying poisons to your weapons, so that benefit isn’t really there. Adding to the DC of a poison seems useful, but the only poison in the game is a ‘basic poison’ that is a DC 11 Constitution save or 1d4 poison damage. It lasts for a minute on a weapon or three pieces of ammunition and costs 100 gold (!). For that poison in particular, this skill trick is very limited in its use.Fix: Maybe with more poisons in the game that are more mechanically powerful this skill trick will have more usefulness. I don’t really like the idea of failing to apply a poison or exposing yourself to it, but if that existed this trick would have more usefulness as well.Quick ReflexesWhen you roll for initiative add your skill die result to it. Or, spend it to make yourself not surprised if you were.Problem: Solid. Doesn’t compete for space on your turn, good pick for any rogue.Fix: Maybe renamed as reflexes makes me think of reflex defense or reflex saving throw from previous editions, but it seems decent. Read LipsSpend your skill dice to understand what a creature is saying from a distance with a DC 10 intelligence check.Problem: Can you not already do this? Should the DC be higher for others without this trick?Fix: Clarify the above. Also, go ahead and fold this into the ‘Master Linguist’ skill trick. Or, fold it into a new skill trick that is based around reading body language, and have reading lips be one of its effects, or perhaps just reading faces. Right now it’s a combination of too narrow and not potent (depending on if others can even attempt to read lips.)Superior FootworkSkill die result adds to your distance moved when walking, or you can spend it to ignore difficult terrain or as a reaction to remain standing when knocked prone. This is a well written skill trick for a few reasons. It’s not too narrow, as it applies to speed, difficult terrain, and being knocked prone which are all thematically linked. It’s not too weak, as it doesn’t rely on a 50/50 skill check result to pull off. And finally it has a clear mechanical benefit that can’t be replicated easily with skill checks or convincing the DM.Problem: Maybe not powerful enough, but it’s hard to say. If speed, difficult terrain, and prone never negatively affect you meaningfully, then this trick will be worthless.Fix: Well written, but there’s unfortunately not much of a ‘baseline’ to compare it to, as fighters have with ‘deadly strike’ or now just spending their damage dice.TauntSpend your skill die to choose a creature within 30 to move toward you on its next turn before using its action if they fail against your charisma.Problem: It might be too thematically narrow being called a taunt. Taunts could be a stretch to consider working on some foes. Also, it’s unclear if the enemy will take opportunity attacks in order to get to you. Maybe its meant to be entirely DM dependent, but the viability of this mechanic rests pretty much on that.Fix: Rename this to something more like ‘Trick’ or ‘Gambit.’ Of course it’s probably not good to have a skill trick named Trick, but it fits more with what is happening. Perhaps the Rogue is using a taunt to trick the opponent, but taunting isn’t the ‘goal’ of the Rogue, the goal is to cause a misstep. Also, it being immune if its immune to charm is unnecessary, as unintelligent creatures (Like Zombies) cannot be charmed but they can easily be tricked (The Walking Dead TV show has this scenario frequently.) I also think this trick should be able to be used to get a creature to do nearly anything within reason, like perhaps running away from you (Tricking an enemy into thinking there are more of you) or shouting to tell your allies not to touch the ‘trapped tiles’ the enemy is near, and so the enemy side steps into supposedly safe tiles that are actually trapped. For example. Etc.) Of course, the problem again comes up on whether or not someone should be able to attempt this without the trick.Trap SenseAdvantage on trap saving throws, and traps have disadvantage on attacks against you. And you can roll your skill die to reduce trap damage. I like this trick much for the same reasons I liked Suprerior Footwork. Clear, solid mechanical benefit without a chance of just failing. Problem: While the trick is narrow, it at least covers both the attack, saving throw, and damage of a trap.Fix: Again without a baseline it’s hard to determine mechanical benefits vs. other choices. I like it, though it is dependent on whether you DM likes to use traps or not.TumbleAdd your skill die to AC against opportunity attacks of creatures you can see. Clear mechanical benefit here.Problem: People just don’t provoke opportunity attacks very often. That said, at least this skill trick isn’t dependent on making a Dexterity vs. Whatever roll.Fix: I would add an additional effect, that if you spend your skill dice you can move away from one creature without provoking an opportunity attack. Or, it can worded that the one opportunity attack against you from a source you could see that turn automatically misses.Unassuming ThreatAdd your skill die as a reaction to your AC whenever there is another ally within an attacking enemy’s reach. I like it, a very good choice for pretty much any rogue.Problem: A bit narrow thematically, though the effect is quite potent.Fix: Unassuming threat could also give you an AC bonus when using your action to hide or to disguise yourself to make it a little less mechanically narrow, though really it’s pretty good how it is.UnflappableCancel out disadvantage on a charisma check by spending your skill die.Problem: Why are there so many charisma based skill tricks that do fairly similar things? Unflappable and Gilded Tongue? That said, it has dubious benefits at higher levels, as rolling 1d20+no skill dice after canceling disadvantage isn’t necessarily better than taking the worse of 2d20+the better of 2dX.Fix: Roll this into Charming Presence, or allow the usage of the skill die on the check itself, and/or make it also apply to dexterity checks.Use Magic DeviceA DC 10 intelligence check lets you use a magic item that you normally could not use.Depending on the prevalence of magical items that fit this bill, like scrolls, in your campaign, this could be quite good. This is a case where I wouldn’t assume anyone with an intelligence score could try to activate a magical item unless I was coming into it with a 3E mindset, so it’s okay that lets you do something a skill would normally cover.Problem: Should it scale with the level of the item as it did before?Fix: I like it, has potential to be very good.VanishWhen using an action to hide, you spend your skill die to move your speed before you hide. Cool. Gives a clear mechanical advantage and fills a thematic niche.Problem: I’m not sure how useful this is, but it does let you get more easily into cover in order to hide. Fix: Should your skill die be spent in pulling off the trick? You’ll probably need it in your hide check. I don’t think it’s overwhelming if you allow the skill dice to be used in the hide, most of the time running to hide will be a suboptimal action anyway since you won’t be attacking that turn, or the 30 feet you have before moving is sufficient anyway.VaultRoll your skill dice to increase jump distance by that many feet or inches for a high jump.Problem: Early on in your rogue career this is mostly less than a square of extra jump distance due to 1d4/1d6 skill die. Such in increase is good and impressive in the real world but has little bearing here.Fix: Roll it into an acrobatic skill trick, like tumble, and call it ‘acrobatics’ or something. And/or, make it do additional potent things, like being able to spend your die to make the jump from standing or being able to jump over smaller creatures.Summary: Too many effects based on vague mechanics. It reminds of martial practices in 4E, where some of the things that would be skill checks in a skill challenge became defined as ‘martial practices’ which either made the skill checks worthless or the martial practices worthless depending on which way the DM wanted to handle it. For example, it’s unclear whether any character should be able to attempt to read lips or only the rogue with this skill trick can. Because of the way it is worded, a DM must make one side or the other less happy.Too many weak and niche effects. These were at one point put into the same category as Sneak Attack, but some of them are used a tenth of the time at half of the relative power (making up numbers.) If its narrow/niche, then the effect should be quite potent and impressive.</blockquote>

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