Deciding During Combat

[The Spectrum Rider]

My 10th-level monk with Spring Attack is 5 feet away from a nasty bad guy. (That is, they are not adjacent; there's a 5-ft. square between them. NBG is size Medium and has 5-ft. reach, just like the monk.)

The monk can either:

(1) Take a 5-ft. step towards the guy, make a Stunning Blow attack, then, using Spring Attack, get out of the way by 55 ft. or so, so as not to get hit.

(2) Take a 5-ft. step toward the guy, make a Stunning Blow attack, then make a second attack (at the usual -5, no Flurry of Blows here).

(3) For that matter, he can take a 5-ft. step towards the guy, then do a Flurry of Blows (no penalty because he's 9th level or higher), with the first one a Stunning Blow.

These all start exactly the same - 5-ft. step, Stunning Blow - then differ. My question is (yes, I do have a question), *when* does the monk have to decide which of these actions he's pursuing? Can he wait to see if his opponent is stunned first, and then decide on that basis?

As I write this out, it dawns on me that the answer is: he has to decide before he moves the 5 ft. Reason: if, perchance, some other opponent was threatening him, it there be a difference between taking a 5 ft. step or making a 5 ft. movement as part of a Spring Attack. (The latter would provoke an AoO from the other opponent.) But what if there was no other opponent? Could he put off his decision?

The Spectrum Rider

 

[dcollins]

If I'm reading this right, the real point of contention is item (1) (with Spring Attack movement).

- First, (1) are written is not possible. You can't take a 5-ft-step (i.e., an AOO-free adjustment) and move in the same round.
- Second, to be consistent, if an AOO is at issue, then a starting 5-ft-step would have to be declared as such (to avoid AOO), and prohibit later movement. This is not in the rules, but an implication of them. (The alternative is back-in-time AOOs.)
- Third, I believe that if Spring Attack is to be used it needs to be declared as such as soon as the movement begins, since it's all then Spring-Attack-movement. This would therefore prohibit more than a single attack.

 

[DarkMaster]

My 10th-level monk with Spring Attack is 5 feet away from a nasty bad guy. (That is, they are not adjacent; there's a 5-ft. square between them. NBG is size Medium and has 5-ft. reach, just like the monk.)

The monk can either:

(1) Take a 5-ft. step towards the guy, make a Stunning Blow attack, then, using Spring Attack, get out of the way by 55 ft. or so, so as not to get hit.

(2) Take a 5-ft. step toward the guy, make a Stunning Blow attack, then make a second attack (at the usual -5, no Flurry of Blows here).

(3) For that matter, he can take a 5-ft. step towards the guy, then do a Flurry of Blows (no penalty because he's 9th level or higher), with the first one a Stunning Blow.

These all start exactly the same - 5-ft. step, Stunning Blow - then differ. My question is (yes, I do have a question), *when* does the monk have to decide which of these actions he's pursuing? Can he wait to see if his opponent is stunned first, and then decide on that basis?

As I write this out, it dawns on me that the answer is: he has to decide before he moves the 5 ft. Reason: if, perchance, some other opponent was threatening him, it there be a difference between taking a 5 ft. step or making a 5 ft. movement as part of a Spring Attack. (The latter would provoke an AoO from the other opponent.) But what if there was no other opponent? Could he put off his decision?

The Spectrum Rider

SRD
You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Therefore 5 foot step if you want to full attack or spring attack if you only want to perform one attack. The rule forces you to decide before you see the result of your action. Which make sense. The way a spring attack is performed is very different from a full attack or a single normal attack. Spring attack is the type of attack that must be done very quickly and single shot, to not give enough time to your opponent to answers back.

 

[Coredump]

I disagree. (No books but...)

Normally, you can make one attack, and then decide if you want to do a full attack, or some other action (MEA)

While you must state if the initial 5' is a step or a move.... you can move 5', then attack, you can then decide how to use the rest of the round. Finish attacks (no Spring attack benefits) move away (get spring attack benefits) stay put and do nothing (no Spring Attack benefits.)

The statement only says that you have to move to get the benefits... it does not say that using SpA is a full round action, nor that it must be declared, etc.

 

[DarkMaster]

I disagree. (No books but...)

Normally, you can make one attack, and then decide if you want to do a full attack, or some other action (MEA)

While you must state if the initial 5' is a step or a move.... you can move 5', then attack, you can then decide how to use the rest of the round. Finish attacks (no Spring attack benefits) move away (get spring attack benefits) stay put and do nothing (no Spring Attack benefits.)

The statement only says that you have to move to get the benefits... it does not say that using SpA is a full round action, nor that it must be declared, etc.

Well if you move 5', that counts as a move action so the best you could do is one normal attack.
and if you perform 5 foot step to make a full attack then no Spring.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The way I see it, when decisions need to be made will vary with the situation.

The described action breaks down into three parts:

1. 5 feet of movement

2. the first attack (stunning fist)

3. the rest of the round (movement or more attacks).

If only one creature threatens the monk, he need make no decision before #1.
If it's a five foot step, he doesn't provoke an AoO for movement because it's only five feet. If it's a spring attack, that doesn't provoke either. So it makes no difference either way.

If more than one creature threatens him, spring attacking would provoke AoOs from the creatures he's not attacking. So he'll need to decide whether or not he provokes an AoO. If he does, he can spring attack. Otherwise, he's limited to the five foot step. (Technically, I'm not certain he would be able to stick with the five foot step if he elects to provoke but I would allow the character to continue the attack even if he provoked an unnecessary AoO just like a character who takes the Flurry/TWF/Rapid Shot penalty can eschew his extra attacks in favor of movement if the first attack makes that a desirable option).

Before step #2, the monk needs to decide whether or not to take the -2 penalty for a flurry. If he does, he doesn't have to actually make all of the extra attacks but if he doesn't, it's too late to take the penalty and get the flurry attacks after that point.

At step #3, (after the resolution of the first attack), the monk may continue the attack (flurrying if he applied the -2 penalty to the first blow) or move away (provided that, at step 1 he provoked AoOs from all threatening creatures he did not attack in step 2).

 

[dcollins]

If only one creature threatens the monk, he need make no decision before #1. If it's a five foot step, he doesn't provoke an AoO for movement because it's only five feet. If it's a spring attack, that doesn't provoke either. So it makes no difference either way.

Consistency should be maintained, and the need to declare something should not depend on how many opponents are standing around the PC.

What if there is an invisible opponent threatening him that he doesn't know about? Then Spring Attack would not protect against this creature, and it does make a difference.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

True. I would usually omit that step to save time if there are no threatening opponents, but I think you're right and technically, the monk should provoke from everyone except the person he's attacking if he wants to retain the possibility of spring attacking.

Consistency should be maintained, and the need to declare something should not depend on how many opponents are standing around the PC.

What if there is an invisible opponent threatening him that he doesn't know about? Then Spring Attack would not protect against this creature, and it does make a difference.

 

[Tatsukun]

I would make you declare what kind of movement you were taking before you did it. The example of invisible threats is sound, there are reasons as DM needs to know if you are taking a 5’ step or moving 5’ as part of a spring attack.

Also, if you move 5’ in as part of a spring attack, and then miss, you want to say “Oh, well, I’m not spring attacking anymore, and that was a 5’ step that I just did.”? As a DM, I hate people “going back in time” to change things they did.

I’ve actually had players try this in my game. I had a guy with three daggers, only one magical, he would throw the first one, and tell me “Oh that missed, so it was a normal one”.

Your example, while less extreme is of the same flavor.

OTOH, I would let you move in as part fo your spring attack, and then for some reason decide to do another standard action (rather than an attack) because you are deciding before you do it.

-Tatsu