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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8603953" data-attributes="member: 29398">Which in this case is a flat-out flaw in the system, in that the PC in this case shouldn't be able to lose initiative......overrule the initiative rules and declare that the triggering action happens first.side note: one way I've handled this in the past is to have the triggering action occur as if it's in its own little mini-round; after which initiative is rolled as normal.&nbsp; Yes this means there's a small chance the triggering character gets to act twice before anyone else does anything, but so what?&nbsp; Fortune favours the brave... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I've had this argument in the past as a player, and while I've not left a game over it I've never come away satisfied.&nbsp; But yes, I'd argue it all night long and if it disrupts the game the DM has no-one to blame but himself.&nbsp; My argument here wouldn't be that I should have succeeded, but that my triggering action should have happened before anything else whether successful or not.My classic example comes from 3e when during a combat two characters wanted to move using some temporary fog for cover, holding hands so they wouldn't get separated; the higher initiative PC delayed to match the lower, but due to turn-based initiative that doesn't allow for simultaneous actions the DM said we couldn't do that and had to move separately, and of course we lost each other in the fog.&nbsp; The resulting argument went on for hours.If the DM narrates or forces results that simply don't make sense in the fiction the DM can rightly expect to be called on it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 8603953, member: 29398"] Which in this case is a flat-out flaw in the system, in that the PC in this case shouldn't be able to lose initiative... ...overrule the initiative rules and declare that the triggering action happens first. side note: one way I've handled this in the past is to have the triggering action occur as if it's in its own little mini-round; after which initiative is rolled as normal. Yes this means there's a small chance the triggering character gets to act twice before anyone else does anything, but so what? Fortune favours the brave... :) I've had this argument in the past as a player, and while I've not left a game over it I've never come away satisfied. But yes, I'd argue it all night long and if it disrupts the game the DM has no-one to blame but himself. My argument here wouldn't be that I should have succeeded, but that my triggering action should have happened before anything else whether successful or not. My classic example comes from 3e when during a combat two characters wanted to move using some temporary fog for cover, holding hands so they wouldn't get separated; the higher initiative PC delayed to match the lower, but due to turn-based initiative that doesn't allow for simultaneous actions the DM said we couldn't do that and had to move separately, and of course we lost each other in the fog. The resulting argument went on for hours. If the DM narrates or forces results that simply don't make sense in the fiction the DM can rightly expect to be called on it. [/QUOTE]

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