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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 8605770" data-attributes="member: 23751">It's not a matter of it being hidden.&nbsp; Imagine a scenario where two sides are talking and one guy has a dagger out and is say cleaning his nails with it.&nbsp; No overt hostility to start a combat, but the dagger is out.&nbsp; Later on during the conversation he gets tired of what the diplomat is saying and suddenly throws his dagger at the diplomat's guard that has been giving him stink eye the whole time.&nbsp; Even though people knew about the dagger, there's just not going to be time for that guard to react to the motion of his arm, move 30 feet and then attack the dagger thrower before that throw completes.&nbsp; It's not surprise, but the dagger thrower should top the initiative count and go first.There have been many times over the years where the PCs have been talking to a group of thugs or something and I've said something along the lines of, &quot;While you are talking to the leader of the thugs, one of his men pulls out a dagger and starts tossing it and catching it.&quot;&nbsp; If the players don't interrupt me when I say &quot;pulls out a dagger&quot; and attack, then the rest of my sentence happens and there is no initiative or combat.&nbsp; Not all weapons pulled mean you are in combat.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 8605770, member: 23751"] It's not a matter of it being hidden. Imagine a scenario where two sides are talking and one guy has a dagger out and is say cleaning his nails with it. No overt hostility to start a combat, but the dagger is out. Later on during the conversation he gets tired of what the diplomat is saying and suddenly throws his dagger at the diplomat's guard that has been giving him stink eye the whole time. Even though people knew about the dagger, there's just not going to be time for that guard to react to the motion of his arm, move 30 feet and then attack the dagger thrower before that throw completes. It's not surprise, but the dagger thrower should top the initiative count and go first. There have been many times over the years where the PCs have been talking to a group of thugs or something and I've said something along the lines of, "While you are talking to the leader of the thugs, one of his men pulls out a dagger and starts tossing it and catching it." If the players don't interrupt me when I say "pulls out a dagger" and attack, then the rest of my sentence happens and there is no initiative or combat. Not all weapons pulled mean you are in combat. [/QUOTE]

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