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<blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 2192409" data-attributes="member: 3400">Except that it is clear that the campaign IS on the skids because of a puzzle. The DM should also be working to break the impasse that the players are in. And that may entail giving hints to the puzzle to characters who succeed at certain skill or Int checks. That's fair to the PCs who have invested in the stat.I'd do the same for characters in social situations that the player couldn't handle either. Shy Rob may not have an 18 Charisma, but if he devises a reasonable approach and reasonable things to talk about, his character's Cha bonus is added to the roll rather than me relying only on the player's own charisma to determine the level of success. I have read over the thread and I'm not sure I see anything saying the PCs can't leave the dungeon. Why not leave, consult a sage or other expert, and come back? That should be another source of hints, all handled within the context of the game. Heck, see if you can consider posting in a&nbsp; board like this one as the sage consultation. Chances are, someone here has experience with similar puzzles and can help figure it out.While I think puzzles and riddles of some sort are valid things to have in the game, DMs have to realize that logjams can occur and be willing to deal with them fairly within the context of the game. Similarly, the puzzle or riddle shouldn't rely on metagame knowledge (like the shapes of the die faces example mentioned previously). But my bottom line is: That DM should recognize that his campaign is in jeopardy because of a puzzle, whether ill-advised in construction or not, and plan accordingly if he wants to be able to run again and have you guys as willing players.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="billd91, post: 2192409, member: 3400"] Except that it is clear that the campaign IS on the skids because of a puzzle. The DM should also be working to break the impasse that the players are in. And that may entail giving hints to the puzzle to characters who succeed at certain skill or Int checks. That's fair to the PCs who have invested in the stat. I'd do the same for characters in social situations that the player couldn't handle either. Shy Rob may not have an 18 Charisma, but if he devises a reasonable approach and reasonable things to talk about, his character's Cha bonus is added to the roll rather than me relying only on the player's own charisma to determine the level of success. I have read over the thread and I'm not sure I see anything saying the PCs can't leave the dungeon. Why not leave, consult a sage or other expert, and come back? That should be another source of hints, all handled within the context of the game. Heck, see if you can consider posting in a board like this one as the sage consultation. Chances are, someone here has experience with similar puzzles and can help figure it out. While I think puzzles and riddles of some sort are valid things to have in the game, DMs have to realize that logjams can occur and be willing to deal with them fairly within the context of the game. Similarly, the puzzle or riddle shouldn't rely on metagame knowledge (like the shapes of the die faces example mentioned previously). But my bottom line is: That DM should recognize that his campaign is in jeopardy because of a puzzle, whether ill-advised in construction or not, and plan accordingly if he wants to be able to run again and have you guys as willing players. [/QUOTE]

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