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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Steel_Wind" data-source="post: 1660542" data-attributes="member: 20741">The one elements which is missing throughout all of these philophical discussions on the natuere and qualiy of evil is the inclusion of the supernatural and extra-planar and its role in defining evil in the game world.When your touchstone for evil and your discussions of it are based on the words of philosophers and historians and even earthly religious writings, you are going to get some wildly divergent opinions.And that's why those opinions are all flawed.  They are based on different assumptions than those which exist in the game world.The vast majority of game worlds do have fundamentally different factual underpinnings than our own. In the game world:1 - Evil as an extra-planar source factually exists and physically manifests itself on the material plane. It does so frequently, and can even be MADE to do so with an element of predictability (summoning a demon, for example) such that no one can debate its factual existence.  It is not a matter of faith.*True Evil is real*.2 - Infernal and Abyssal powers may have their own complex motives and machinations, but what distinguishes such True Evil from the garden variety moral relativism discussed in this thread is that True Evil is its OWN purpose.  The infernal and abyssal powers seek to do evil for its own sake, because it pleases them and effects a result which they enjoy simply *because* it causes harm and suffering.  And I don't mean this in some kinky SM way either - (there are no SSC demons).* True Evil is alien*3 - If we view our own history through the lens of True Evil, few events stuck out as does the Holocaust.  While it is itself a complex thing, few would doubt that as a deliberate plan of genocide, it was wholly evil. At its genesis is a primal hatred of its victims - and that's instructive.  Many destroy and enslave plots from game worlds share those same ruinous effects on the land and its peoples*True Evil mainfests as a malevolent hatred and despite for its own sake*And that's the difference in game terms between the moral relativism and ruthless acts discussed above.If you have a look at the alingment "chaotic evil" and try to comprehend that outlook IRL, I am unable to see how any human being could be viewed as CE without being, in fact, psychotic and insane. Neutral evil - evil for evil's sake - the same result.  That's simply not a human motivation.Lawful Evil, being far more complex and worldly in its portrayal within the AD&D/D&D mythos is something that we can easily relate to.  Many of us would have little difficulty pointing to real world governments, actions and legal regimes which would appear to be "Lawful Evil".  Slavery is difficult to comprehend as something other than lawful evil, for example.Room for debate on the issue of slavery and lawful evil you think?Perhpas. But I think that's a problem not so much with the banality  of "Lawful Evil" as it is a problem with the overly worldy definition of Lawful Evil in the game rulebooks. So where I am going with this? Simple: True Evil in game terms, is real, it is alien in its motives and origins and it is malevolent towards life itself. It seeks to destroy, dominate and enslave not because those methods are more efficacious, but because those methods are themselves an essential ingredient in expressing and achieving their malevolence.  True Evil beings in game terms are those who seek to promulgate the plans of those infernal and abyssal powers.  There is a profound difference between the thief who will kills to gain gold and the High Priest and his minions who seek to spread undeath and destruction in accordance with the plans of an extra-planar demon.True Evil is easy to recognize in the game world because black & white exists without any need or explanation resulting in shades of grey.</blockquote>

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