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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 6256976" data-attributes="member: 7635">I think this is an important element of the "evolving" of D&D playstyle. In Basic/1e/Original, the character was an avatar. He represented the player in the world, but for the most part it was "you" in the role. Your intelligence figured out the puzzle. Your charisma determined if the noble was convinced. Your ingenuity found the secret door, etc. Your avatar could be bone-stupid (4 Int) or ultra suave (16 cha) but aside from a few modifiers (languages known, retainers gained) those attributes didn't matter. It was what YOU did. 2e began a tonal shift from Avatar to Character. The game began to see a PC as a character somewhat separate from the player, akin to a character being different from his actor. Thus, the game began to ask questions like "Well, what does Dwurn the Dwarf see?" or "Can Electra the Sorceress seduce the guardsman?" Unfortunately, 2e was thinking loftier thoughts, but still married to AD&D's avatar rules. 3e would come in to change that. 3e began to argue your character could do things you (as a player) could not. Emphasis on a proper skills system codified in the rules began to measure how knowledgeable, perceptive, or sly you were. Ability scores gained greater emphasis. You looked for feats, skills, and prestige classes that tried to explain who Dwurn or Electra was. You jumped class to class mixing skills to round them out. The rules began to cover things that previously was the onerous of the player. 4e continued the trend. Is it good or bad?Depends. Some people like to be challenged as a player. Some people look at the Tomb of Horrors as a test of their mettle; the reward was bragging rights that *I* outsmarted the tomb. But others couldn't find a sane reason that Frodrick the Fighter would EVER go in there, let sleeping liches lie! Thats not what their character would do. Note: as with all generalizations, some people cared more about characters in 1e and some play toon-ready dungeon hacks in 3e/4e. Its not about rules complexity or roll/role playing, its about the idea who is really being challenged: Frodrick the Fighter or Bob, his player. Earlier D&D said the latter, later the former.</blockquote>

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