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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Brentos" data-source="post: 3911785" data-attributes="member: 14027">Wow!Wow!  Great response.  I will debate a few points, though...Score 1 for 4eThis mythology has radically changed and altered since the 70's...this is no different.  In fact, the Gygaxian lens has lost focus the farther we go along...evolution.  Also, I'm a big Planescape fan, and the changed cosmology sounds really cool! Yet, this is (arguably) the biggest piece of the game that is ignored, hated, house-ruled away.  You can still have evil acts have natural (or supernatural) consequences, that is whay DM fiat is for...its just no longer badwrongfun to ignore it as a game mechanic.  I don't see this changing.  In fact, 4th edition sounds like it could do a brilliant Harry Potter type adventure!Heh.  Sh** the role-playing game!  Defend your Sh** from invading beetles!  Sounds cool!   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> This is my biggest point to this.  600 pages!  I imagine that a DM who has 100's of pages of houserules will not be happy with any addition.  What kinds of house-rules are they?  Fluff?  Crunch?  Restriction?  New options?  I would love to put them through the same lens as 4e is  being put through to see if it is "real" D&D... (Not disparaging, just curious...600 pages!  Based on reading your postings and such, I imagine it is actually quite good stuff.)I disagree, but I do agree that some of the new names are...too much.  In fact, I was sorry to see the names Bigby, Mord-y, etc. dropped, because I found the fluff names to be exciting (even though I didn't have any idea who they were).I don't think D&D can model any book very well without massive modification.  Plus, making changes can be difficult...600 pages of difficult!   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />   You can definitely make the fluff for any book, but to make the action match what characters can do in a movie or book, and make it internally consistent and fun for all players at the table...very difficult.But what is best is that it can do Conan in one scenario, and Pirates of the Carribean in another, and King Kong in yet a third, all within the same campaign world, and using the same characters at various levels/points in their adventuring career.Great thoughts here! I love your thoughts on rust monster uses! I like the redesign, though, and its fluffiness could still do most of that, I think.  Outside of combat, the rust monster, if given 30 minutes, maybe can still chew through a metal door.I don't buy that argument.  Who cares what the feat/PrC, etc is, as long as the player and DM know what mechanics can occur.  I imagine you've made up feats, etc., and the name probably isn't very important anyhoo.  Note, though, I'm not a fan of the Jungle Tiger Crouch Snap Whip variety name, and I hope they get Dodo'd.Weren't we just discussing how ditching the old stuff was bad, so wouldn't have ditching the old-name "tiefling" been bad?  I like the name, myself.It's not forcing the cosmology down your throat at all.  They have a sample cosmology in the core books, just like 3e.  Change a name, etc., and it is all yours again.  The Realms, and other setting won't be tied to the sample "core" cosmology.What races/monsters/classes should be in the core books, and why?  That, too, has changed over the years.  New stuff gets added, old stuff removed, and usually added later.  No difference here.Same now.  The core, though, is slightly different then the prior one, which was slightly different then the prior one...etc.Drow, Mind Flayers, Tieflings, gods, magic, clerics, fighters, dwarves, gnomes, halfling, the Forgotten Realms, Eberron...the trappings of the world, society, races, magic, gods, etc. are in the new edition.  Although, I'm somewhat confused since you didn't seem to want trappings, society, etc., in the core...just a name of a monster and its abilities, or the name of a race and its abilities, which trappings, societies, do you want vs. those you don't?Thanks for the awesome response, this is a great debate topic and I am not trying to snark, just have some friendly debate from someone who thinks 4e sounds like the bees knees (and I've played since Keep on the Borderlands, in case you are curious).-Brent</blockquote>

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