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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bloodtide" data-source="post: 9384193" data-attributes="member: 6684958">Problems are universal.Not for OS so much.  There is a branch of OS that does not even want the players to know anything about playing the game: the DM knows the rules and rolls.  The players just role play.But in general, the rules don't matter much to he players in OS.  The DM might change them at any time, after all.Well, your mixing the two.Old School expects you to role player your character using your player skills and intelligence.  A good player learns how to act.  No actor is a spy, wizard or ninja for real....but they act like one.  And yes OS expects players to put in the effort to act....and again most good actors do this.The DM being in control of the information is gatekeeping.  The clueless players just play the game not knowing much, except when they roll and the DM gives them a bit.  But even then a DM will only say so much, right?  Less then a paragraph?  And the DM will only tell the player what the DM wants them to know.Old School wants a player to know as much as they want to know and figure things out for real.The millions of practitioners disagree with you.Hard Fun is simple enough....it is hard to put together a 5000 peace puzzle.  It is easy to put together a 100 piece puzzle.  Crossword puzzles are hard...Candy Crush is not.  I'd note that you can find people with a lack of common sense everywhere.....not in just one group. Okay, so that is your one picked example that does not seem relevant?You might be stuck on the rut that this only applies to puzzles?  Note it apples to all game play all the time.And giving the players a "pass" is very New School.Right, not everyone is good at puzzles.  Don't use them if you have players that can't solve them.....the same way with nearly anything else.  The difference here is the OS DM tells that player "sorry your not a good fit for my game, goodbye"  and the NS DM changes the game so they can solve the puzzles or "says it is close enough to the answer".Very few Old School games backtrack. Your example is an example of lack of detail.  In NS everyone is just assuming the smart characters are doing smart stuff all the time and does not need to be mentioned.  In OS, the characters would prepare for the journey and be keeping track of things like water by the gallon.  This is common in NS as everyone likes the Flexible Reality.Your example is odd as it is yet again the DM...who is in control of the magic ring glowing...not telling the players vital information.Sure some Old School DMs might say those for this bad example.But this does does show the differences. The NS player just has their character sit down and drink and plays the game very lite and casually.  The OS player is 100% saying to the DM that they put on their ring AND the test the liquid before drinking it, as the game is harsh and deadly.  In OS it is common enough to have items stolen, replaced or destroyed.  Or like in this case have a dispel cast on the ring.  But again a good OS player has a vial of poison with them to test the ring all the time and always before drinking anything.  See the level of minute detail?Also, in OS, some enchanted wine with undetectable poison would be just fine. ----------But ok, drop the silly magic ring part.  We have group NS and OS resting in the afternoon shade.  So a messenger comes with an invite from a baron none of the PCs know, and invites the Pcs to dinner with an offer of a great job.  The baron is in fact planning to poison and capture the PCs and sell them off to an old foe.So in OS the DM will do nothing to tip away that evil plot.  But the characters are free to use all afternoon to discover whatever information about the baron that they can.  But as they must do every little bit "for real" this will take time and effort.  The baron did not tell every NPC in the world his plan....only three NPCs know about it.  Only if the players can use their real skills and intelligence might they piece together random facts and clues. And in general, the only way they might really find out about the plot is going to the barons castle ahead of time.  The players here have to be alert that anything might be a trap or worse. The players might do some preparation, like have antidote or magic too.So....NS.  Well, the players will just roll "what does not character know about this baron?" and the DM will read off a bit.  And the critical bit is does the DM...buy just this lone roll...tip the players off by having the character "know the baron and the old foe are best friends".  Because when the players are told that information for free, they might take notice.  Also the NS DM thinks it's fair that the characters has "someway" to learn about the poison plan....maybe even just "they will see the cook putting drops in the drinks from a vial marked 'poison'."  The players here are more casual....they know the NS DM will give them lots of obvious chances....and they can always ask for recons like "oh my character would have been smart enough to do X"....and the DM will agree.But what would you say?  In an OS game there is at least a 50% chance that the characters would learn nothing suspicious and get poisoned.  In a NS game the percent is...You don't like Old School and mix it with Bad DMs....So..................to be clear you are saying Character Death is the Worst thing that can happen in a game?They are not...that is how a near reality simulation world works.  A player is limited by what their character can see and hear.  They have no idea what goes on in the rest of the world.This is the big difference between the NS character being Main Characters and having the world revolve around them; and OS where the characters are just everybodies.</blockquote>

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