Deities & Demigods + ELH = ?

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Actually...

Hello again!

The Level=CR rule only breaks down after 20 if we assume that epic progression is anything like 1-20,

So you agree with me on something!? *stunned*

that remains to be seen...

By you.

I already know how progression continues*.

*and then some.

You only need to take a cursory glance at the stats for deities to see how progression continues.

Also you might want to check out the Lady of the Mountain character excerpt:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/arcana/47

multiclass characters, though weaker in combat than their single class counterparts, still follow the above rule. That rule could still stand and the results we have spied in the DaD could simply be 'weak' on a class basic, but still technically epic..just one of the foibles in a system which was always meant to be a ROUGH approximation..

Like I said, I already understand class progression based on multiple sources.

Conclusion: we will see when the ELH makes its appearance....

Certainly that is the inevitable 'litmus test'. But even before that we can easily conclude the basics given the evidence to date.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there!

Also bit mixed though on stated deities not using the epic format. Who else is going to really 'need' stated deities?

Exactly!

If anything the ELH will rely more on D&Dg than vice versa even!

 

[jasamcarl]

Sigh...

UK, the term 'complementary' was suppossed to denote the ability of one product to influence the purchase of the other...i was using the term in its formal, economic sense

Now on to your other points..

The space wotc devoted to certain material is only roughly indicative to relative value of that material. What that means is..try to follow this, they make a larger marginal profit off of those pages devoted to rules, but the other material, i.e. the pantheons, are still worth printing. Besides which, adding and playtesting rules options would grow increasingly expensive all for the benefit of subsystems that might see little use....

And of course they HAD the option..perhaps not the designers, but someone with Wotc's manegment, who presumably had some business acumen made a this conscience descision. It is not a far off assumption that it was profit-motivated....

Now back to the complementary issue. Yes, the rules are consistent, and thus you can make gods with single-class epic progression, and for their cross-over audience, that might be worth stressing. But in the aggregate it might not very well show any significant returns. That is why the DaD designers used the epic rules that required the least explanation, i.e. the multiclass progression. It is not known how closely the teams worked together, and it cost little to implement the above and probably had the added benefits not just of ELH/DaD cross promotion but of allowing the the DaD designers to properly gauge the power of their dieties....

And finally, and i do mean FINALLY, yes YOU know that some are upset about the lack of full implementation of the ELH rules into DaD, but to claim that they are in any way representitive of the larger or potential market and actually WORTH IT TO WOTC is a bit narrowminded. I started to post here en masse in response to some threads on DaD and FR balance because i noted a lot of hasty, ego-driven arguments that were lacking in intellectual discipline or basic empathy. I hoped to bring a rational, democratic voice to the proceedings, but i think i am sinking into a quagmire.. i love these boards for the polite discussion and at times insightful commentary and will continue to lurk on them. But i see now that others can make the arguments i am making and eventually the responses i want will be had regardless of whether i post or not...there is no reason for me to spend as much time as i am sacraficing through these prolonged, back-and-forthes...

Bye all....

 

[Staffan]

Re: Re: Actually...

Also you might want to check out the Lady of the Mountain character excerpt:

I'd just like to point out that the Lady of the Mountain was not released as a preview of the Epic Level rules, but as part of "Legends week" at www.magicthegathering.com. I would not bet money on the make-up of the epic-level rules based on that.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Sigh...

Hi mate!

UK, the term 'complementary' was suppossed to denote the ability of one product to influence the purchase of the other...i was using the term in its formal, economic sense

Okay. I assumed you were refering to its functional use.

Now on to your other points..

Sure.

The space wotc devoted to certain material is only roughly indicative to relative value of that material.

I agree.

What that means is..try to follow this

I'll try, go slow...

they make a larger marginal profit off of those pages devoted to rules, but the other material, i.e. the pantheons, are still worth printing. Besides which, adding and playtesting rules options would grow increasingly expensive all for the benefit of subsystems that might see little use...

Which would facilitate making such important releases Core Rulebooks. Especially when the material is going to be relevant to multiple follow up products.

Another point is that even if you were to include the core mechanics in one book it doesn't stop you adding elements in another.

So even if they lumped Epic & Divinity rules together they could add additional rules in Deities & Demigods and Faiths & Pantheons.

And of course they HAD the option..perhaps not the designers, but someone with Wotc's manegment, who presumably had some business acumen made a this conscience descision. It is not a far off assumption that it was profit-motivated....

I'll be sure and ask Anthony (Valterra) next time I email him.

Now back to the complementary issue.

Okay.

Yes, the rules are consistent, and thus you can make gods with single-class epic progression, and for their cross-over audience, that might be worth stressing.

Thats my opinion...

But in the aggregate it might not very well show any significant returns. That is why the DaD designers used the epic rules that required the least explanation, i.e. the multiclass progression. It is not known how closely the teams worked together, and it cost little to implement the above and probably had the added benefits not just of ELH/DaD cross promotion but of allowing the the DaD designers to properly gauge the power of their dieties...

...I see your point of view. However, I can't give the opinion of everyone - just myself.

And finally, and i do mean FINALLY, yes YOU know that some are upset about the lack of full implementation of the ELH rules into DaD,

I'm sure we'll all get over it!

but to claim that they are in any way representitive of the larger or potential market and actually WORTH IT TO WOTC is a bit narrowminded.

I would have said selfish...then countered that point with the fact I spend hundreds on WotC products (and before them thousands on TSR products) therefore entitling myself to voicing an opinion.

I started to post here en masse in response to some threads on DaD and FR balance because i noted a lot of hasty, ego-driven arguments that were lacking in intellectual discipline or basic empathy.

Well I'm glad I was able to turn all that round for you!

I hoped to bring a rational, democratic voice to the proceedings, but i think i am sinking into a quagmire.

I often feel the same.

Don't be too hard on yourself mate! You can't please all of the people all of the time.

I love these boards for the polite discussion and at times insightful commentary and will continue to lurk on them.

You mean you're not posting anymore!?!?

I hope it wasn't something I said!?

But i see now that others can make the arguments i am making and eventually the responses i want will be had regardless of whether i post or not...

Okay I am confused with this bit.

Do you mean I'm making all the right arguments anyway so you don't feel the need to post!? If so I'm flattered, but thats no reason to vacate the boards mate!

there is no reason for me to spend as much time as i am sacraficing through these prolonged, back-and-forthes...

I agree, sometimes you do lose track of time. You're lucky - you want to try balancing half dozen quick fire threads at once!

Bye all...

Take care mate!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Re: Actually...

Hi Staffan!

I'd just like to point out that the Lady of the Mountain was not released as a preview of the Epic Level rules, but as part of "Legends week" at www.magicthegathering.com. I would not bet money on the make-up of the epic-level rules based on that.

From what I know, apart from most of the items it is reflective of the Epic Level Rules.

Actually Epic progression is not really that different (the basics anyway).

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Upper_Krust -

One of the things I think that you leave out is that if the rules for Deity generation were in the ELH - then Deities and Demigods becomes little more than a "Setting book" for Greyhawk. - and that is something that WOTC is definitely trying to avoid.

When it comes to MotP - if you aren't using the Greyhawk "great wheel" - the amount of useable material is dramatically reduced. Every page spent describing this or that plane - to you, is a waste in your eyes. This is a good chunk of MotP - and the book isn't all that cheap at IIRC 39.95. On top of that - it is very much a "GM's book" - meaning that the player doesn't usually buy it.

MMII - Deities and Demigods - and the ELH hold "cross market" appeal - for those who don't buy into the FRCS or Greyhawk Settings. Namely, we can strip the "Greyhawk exclusive" material out of the book - and use it directly in our setting. If you "smash" the rules for generating deities into the ELH - you might wind up eliminating the Deities and Demigods cross market appeal. If I don't run FRCS or Greyhawk - what does the Deities and Demigods book mean to me? - I can already generate my own gods using ELH rules?

ELH - for all practical purposes, is Core Rulebook IV when it comes to characters above 20th level. I strongly feel that WotC is trying to avoid the tendency of 2e to present "Players Option" and "DM's Option" books. While 3e ELH may not merge rules for the gods themselves into the book - It is already essentially merging the "Player's Option" and "DM's Option - High level campaigns." into one book - a move I LIKE seeing.

As I see it 3e D and D - WoTC products can be broken into 5 categories -

The Core Rulebooks:
The PHB, the MM, and the DMG. A whole lot of information needed to be put into the limited space of the DMG and the MM - and they did a great job in getting it there. While I would have liked to see some more "refining" of certain spells and magic items - they are few and far between. Also - this is where nearly 95 percent of my complaints about quality are located.

The MM itself introduced the concept of templates - which was nice, but many of the "little things" were missed when packing so many monsters into one volume. Considering that the DMG and the PHB are so well written - I will put up wiith having to "finesse" my monsters a bit for consistency in the rules.

The "class handbooks"
Sword and Fist, Defenders of the Faith, Song and Silence, Masters of the Wild, and Tome and Blood really dropped the ball on a couple of counts. First, the quality wasn't that great - but I didn't expect this as these are 90 day "wonder products" and the rules questions on the books abound. I also find that many of the PrC aren't very useable - and a few of the spells - the "Spikes" spell imparticular - strike me as fundamentally unbalanced in design.

While the Psionics Handbook is a bit better - I feel that Psionics felt FAR too similar to the already existing spells within the PHB. Most - if not all of the spells translate closely to an already printed spell. I personally bought the book not for the ability to play a psion, but to use it to generate spell ideas and magic item concepts. The psion lacks that "unique feel" among classes - and just doesn't have a niche in the classic game concept. They don't fit well to my sense of things - and I don't allow them to be used in my game.

Campaingn setting books
This category includes The Wheel of Time, FRCS, even the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer among others. When you have your own campaign setting - you don't buy these as a matter of routine. I might go to the shop and look at them - but I am not inclined to spend money on books that I won't use.

Modules
I have my own campaign - and the luxury of having time to design it. If I buy a module - It is for the collector's value.

Setting material - non campaign specific
In this category - I place the MotP, The Stronghold book, The Hero Builder's guidebook, Enemies and Allies, and the upcoming Book of Challenges.

When it comes to MotP - I have the book - but I honestly felt there was a whole lot of "Greyhawk specific" material that I wound up buying, but not liking in the least. The "how to build" your own setting advice, as well as the spell concepts were ok - but I did think the book was a bit pricey.

In My mind - the Hero Builder's Guidebook was for beginners, and I would rather teach new players how to be role players than have them just "read a book" about it. I found enemies and allies next to useless - Having my own NPC's around and available. The stronghold Builder's Guidebook didn't strike a chord either - I read it at the local game shop - and left it there. Not useful for me.

I do Hold out much more hope when it comes to the Book of Challenges. At 128 pages... it seems promising, and if the traps hold true - this should be on a par with the likes of the good old grimtooth's books - minus the sillyness. I haven't heard much about it - and If it HAS hit the game shop - I must have missed it...

Post 20th level/Epic Core Rules
The Epic level Handbook, Deities and Demigods, and most likely MMII (if the book holds more things to challenge players above 10th level as advertised) fall into this category. These books are going to be the essential core for "high level" play - and show a whole lot of promise.

The ELH is the PHB and DMG rolled into one for this level of play - a nice change from 2e, and MMII should do well to challenge characters with more powerful baddies; I am somewhat unsure about Deities and Demigods. I am hoping that the book contains a bit more than the "statistics of the canon gods and their avatars". For that reason - I am going to take a wait and see attitude towards the book.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Upper_Krust -

Hi there!

One of the things I think that you leave out is that if the rules for Deity generation were in the ELH - then Deities and Demigods becomes little more than a "Setting book" for Greyhawk. - and that is something that WOTC is definitely trying to avoid.

I don't think it has to be exclusively one thing or the other. You could remove the basic rules for Divinity but still add a wealth of mechanics building on that.

When it comes to MotP - if you aren't using the Greyhawk "great wheel" - the amount of useable material is dramatically reduced. Every page spent describing this or that plane - to you, is a waste in your eyes. This is a good chunk of MotP - and the book isn't all that cheap at IIRC 39.95. On top of that - it is very much a "GM's book" - meaning that the player doesn't usually buy it.

Deities & Demigods is also a GMs book - which is why it has a Blue Cover and the Epic Level Handbook has a brown cover.

MMII - Deities and Demigods - and the ELH hold "cross market" appeal - for those who don't buy into the FRCS or Greyhawk Settings. Namely, we can strip the "Greyhawk exclusive" material out of the book - and use it directly in our setting. If you "smash" the rules for generating deities into the ELH - you might wind up eliminating the Deities and Demigods cross market appeal. If I don't run FRCS or Greyhawk - what does the Deities and Demigods book mean to me? - I can already generate my own gods using ELH rules?

To be fair the 'Greyhawk' deities are presented to be the Core D&D Deities. The real world Pantheons/Mythologies are going to be useful in a number of games.

Another point is that Deities & Demigods is optional as it stands now anyway.

ELH - for all practical purposes, is Core Rulebook IV when it comes to characters above 20th level.

I agree. I doubt they will subtitle it as such though!?

I strongly feel that WotC is trying to avoid the tendency of 2e to present "Players Option" and "DM's Option" books. While 3e ELH may not merge rules for the gods themselves into the book - It is already essentially merging the "Player's Option" and "DM's Option - High level campaigns." into one book - a move I LIKE seeing.

I agree - its definately a superior format to 2nd Ed. material.

As I see it 3e D and D - WoTC products can be broken into 5 categories -

The Core Rulebooks:
The PHB, the MM, and the DMG. A whole lot of information needed to be put into the limited space of the DMG and the MM - and they did a great job in getting it there. While I would have liked to see some more "refining" of certain spells and magic items - they are few and far between. Also - this is where nearly 95 percent of my complaints about quality are located.

The MM itself introduced the concept of templates - which was nice, but many of the "little things" were missed when packing so many monsters into one volume. Considering that the DMG and the PHB are so well written - I will put up wiith having to "finesse" my monsters a bit for consistency in the rules.

I was pretty happy with the core rulebooks - obviously there is always something you would rather see or changes made here and there - but on the whole I was satisfied.

The "class handbooks"
Sword and Fist, Defenders of the Faith, Song and Silence, Masters of the Wild, and Tome and Blood really dropped the ball on a couple of counts. First, the quality wasn't that great - but I didn't expect this as these are 90 day "wonder products" and the rules questions on the books abound. I also find that many of the PrC aren't very useable - and a few of the spells - the "Spikes" spell imparticular - strike me as fundamentally unbalanced in design.

I quite liked these books to be honest...but I think I am in the minority there!?

While the Psionics Handbook is a bit better - I feel that Psionics felt FAR too similar to the already existing spells within the PHB. Most - if not all of the spells translate closely to an already printed spell. I personally bought the book not for the ability to play a psion, but to use it to generate spell ideas and magic item concepts. The psion lacks that "unique feel" among classes - and just doesn't have a niche in the classic game concept. They don't fit well to my sense of things - and I don't allow them to be used in my game.

I sort of felt the Psionicist should have maybe replaced the Sorceror class?

Campaign setting books
This category includes The Wheel of Time, FRCS, even the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer among others. When you have your own campaign setting - you don't buy these as a matter of routine. I might go to the shop and look at them - but I am not inclined to spend money on books that I won't use.

I have the FRCS. It is good, but I agree its not going to see everyday use.

Modules
I have my own campaign - and the luxury of having time to design it. If I buy a module - It is for the collector's value.

Nice. I haven't bought any 3rd Ed. modules yet.

Setting material - non campaign specific
In this category - I place the MotP, The Stronghold book, The Hero Builder's guidebook, Enemies and Allies, and the upcoming Book of Challenges.

Is the Stronghold book out yet?

When it comes to MotP - I have the book - but I honestly felt there was a whole lot of "Greyhawk specific" material that I wound up buying, but not liking in the least. The "how to build" your own setting advice, as well as the spell concepts were ok - but I did think the book was a bit pricey.

I thought (and I know so do a lot of other people) that MotP was great. Lots of ideas and options!

In My mind - the Hero Builder's Guidebook was for beginners, and I would rather teach new players how to be role players than have them just "read a book" about it. I found enemies and allies next to useless - Having my own NPC's around and available.

I didn't like the look of this - I think it was targeted at beginners anyway.

The stronghold Builder's Guidebook didn't strike a chord either - I read it at the local game shop - and left it there. Not useful for me.

When did you see this? ENWorld says its not out until May!?

I do Hold out much more hope when it comes to the Book of Challenges. At 128 pages... it seems promising, and if the traps hold true - this should be on a par with the likes of the good old grimtooth's books - minus the sillyness. I haven't heard much about it - and If it HAS hit the game shop - I must have missed it...

I don't think its out until June.

Post 20th level/Epic Core Rules
The Epic level Handbook, Deities and Demigods, and most likely MMII (if the book holds more things to challenge players above 10th level as advertised) fall into this category. These books are going to be the essential core for "high level" play - and show a whole lot of promise.

Really looking forward to all these!

The ELH is the PHB and DMG rolled into one for this level of play - a nice change from 2e,

There is also a substatial Monster Chapter in the ELH.

and MMII should do well to challenge characters with more powerful baddies;

Hopefully it will have some of the Demon Princes/Archdevils?

I am somewhat unsure about Deities and Demigods. I am hoping that the book contains a bit more than the "statistics of the canon gods and their avatars". For that reason - I am going to take a wait and see attitude towards the book.

I have to have this ASAP.

 

[~Joseph~]

THIS IS COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC!!!

since I did start this tread (although is has been highjaked) I think I'm entitled to this.... ever since I started on this boards I've wanted to have one of my threads to go over one page, and after many tries and failures, I have finally found a topic that people will argue over. I thank you all very much, I would like to thank my mother and father, my family, all my staff, Jim, Mike, all you guyes who helped make my dream reality. Thank you very much for this great honor.

ok you may continue

 

[Nightfall]

I quite liked these books to be honest...but I think I am in the minority there!?

Only when it comes to two of them Krusty mate. I INTENSELY disliked Sword and Fist on many levels, favoring the Quin book for fighters and Song and Silence (Traps and Treachery IS a much better book in MY opinion.)

I sort of felt the Psionicist should have maybe replaced the Sorceror class?

Not for me. I still feel psionics SHOULD and thankfully ARE optional.

Nice. I haven't bought any 3rd Ed. modules yet.

d20. I don't care THAT much for most of the WotC "adventure path" mods though the higher levels ones like Bastion and Lord were pretty decent.

When did you see this? ENWorld says its not out until May!?

Maybe he's from Thailand or somewhere where they get early. I know I haven't seen it.

Hopefully it will have some of the Demon Princes/Archdevils?

You and me both Krusty mate. Course I'm looking forward to see if they chose your "baby", the now infamous Slacerian Dragon!