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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Magus_Jerel" data-source="post: 141115" data-attributes="member: 3940">Upper_Krust -One of the things I think that you leave out is that if the rules for Deity generation were in the ELH - then Deities and Demigods becomes little more than a "Setting book" for Greyhawk. - and that is something that WOTC is definitely trying to avoid.When it comes to MotP - if you aren't using the Greyhawk "great wheel" - the amount of useable material is dramatically reduced.  Every page spent describing this or that plane - to you, is a waste in your eyes.  This is a good chunk of MotP - and the book isn't all that cheap at IIRC 39.95.  On top of that - it is very much a "GM's book" - meaning that the player doesn't usually buy it.MMII - Deities and Demigods - and the ELH hold "cross market" appeal - for those who don't buy into the FRCS or Greyhawk Settings.  Namely, we can strip the "Greyhawk exclusive" material out of the book - and use it directly in our setting.  If you "smash" the rules for generating deities into the ELH - you might wind up eliminating the Deities and Demigods cross market appeal. If I don't run FRCS or Greyhawk - what does the Deities and Demigods book mean to me? - I can already generate my own gods using ELH rules?ELH - for all practical purposes, is Core Rulebook IV when it comes to characters above 20th level.  I strongly feel that WotC is trying to avoid the tendency of 2e to present "Players Option" and "DM's Option" books.  While 3e ELH may not merge rules for the gods themselves into the book - It is already essentially merging the "Player's Option" and "DM's Option - High level campaigns." into one book - a move I LIKE seeing.As I see it 3e D and D - WoTC products can be broken into 5 categories -The Core Rulebooks:The PHB, the MM, and the DMG.  A whole lot of information needed to be put into the limited space of the DMG and the MM - and they did a great job in getting it there.  While I would have liked to see some more "refining" of certain spells and magic items - they are few and far between.  Also - this is where nearly 95 percent of my complaints about quality are located.The MM itself introduced the concept of templates - which was nice, but many of the "little things" were missed when packing so many monsters into one volume.  Considering that the DMG and the PHB are so well written - I will put up wiith having to "finesse" my monsters a bit for consistency in the rules.The "class handbooks"Sword and Fist, Defenders of the Faith, Song and Silence, Masters of the Wild, and Tome and Blood really dropped the ball on a couple of counts.  First, the quality wasn't that great - but I didn't expect this as these are 90 day "wonder products" and the rules questions on the books abound.  I also find that many of the PrC aren't very useable - and a few of the spells - the "Spikes" spell imparticular - strike me as fundamentally unbalanced in design.While the Psionics Handbook is a bit better - I feel that Psionics felt FAR too similar to the already existing spells within the PHB.  Most - if not all of the spells translate closely to an already printed spell.  I personally bought the book not for the ability to play a psion, but to use it to generate spell ideas and magic item concepts.  The psion lacks that "unique feel" among classes - and just doesn't have a niche in the classic game concept.  They don't fit well to my sense of things - and I don't allow them to be used in my game.Campaingn setting booksThis category includes The Wheel of Time, FRCS, even the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer among others.  When you have your own campaign setting - you don't buy these as a matter of routine.  I might go to the shop and look at them - but I am not inclined to spend money on books that I won't use.ModulesI have my own campaign - and the luxury of having time to design it.  If I buy a module - It is for the collector's value.Setting material - non campaign specificIn this category - I place the MotP, The Stronghold book, The Hero Builder's guidebook, Enemies and Allies, and the upcoming Book of Challenges.When it comes to MotP - I have the book - but I honestly felt there was a whole lot of "Greyhawk specific" material that I wound up buying, but not liking in the least.  The "how to build" your own setting advice, as well as the spell concepts were ok - but I did think the book was a bit pricey.In My mind - the Hero Builder's Guidebook was for beginners, and I would rather teach new players how to be role players than have them just "read a book" about it.  I found enemies and allies next to useless - Having my own NPC's around and available.  The stronghold Builder's Guidebook didn't strike a chord either - I read it at the local game shop - and left it there.  Not useful for me.I do Hold out much more hope when it comes to the Book of Challenges. At 128 pages... it seems promising, and if the traps hold true - this should be on a par with the likes of the good old grimtooth's books - minus the sillyness.  I haven't heard much about it - and If it HAS hit the game shop - I must have missed it... Post 20th level/Epic Core RulesThe Epic level Handbook, Deities and Demigods, and most likely MMII (if the book holds more things to challenge players above 10th level as advertised) fall into this category.  These books are going to be the essential core for "high level" play - and show a whole lot of promise.The ELH is the PHB and DMG rolled into one for this level of play - a nice change from 2e, and MMII should do well to challenge characters with more powerful baddies; I am somewhat unsure about Deities and Demigods.  I am hoping that the book contains a bit more than the "statistics of the canon gods and their avatars".  For that reason - I am going to take a wait and see attitude towards the book.</blockquote>

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