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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9370018" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I keep repeating myself, because you keep repeating yourself. As well as condescending at me that I must not know what I am talking about. You claim that Fate breaks with what I am talking about, but Fate ALSO uses dice. Maybe you think I don't understand meta-mechanics that allow the shaping of the narrative? But that has never been what I am talking about. I understand and accept those. I also would say that those ARE NOT examples of Providence, as I have defined it repeatedly. Instead of addressing my point, you just keep insisting "but if I say it is Providence then it is Providence" and this is where the fundamental disconnect comes from. You keep saying that just because you insist on a viewpoint, it is true. But that is not how a narrative structure works. Not even in RPGs. I am aware of the Quantum Ogre, and the ability for a DM to alter the structure of the story on the fly, to make it appear as though it was all planned... but this is not Providence. This is not an immutable, divine plan of action. And you keep making a hard barrier in the most key spot. The person consuming the medium. Providence stories function by declaring that the actions that happen were always going to happen. That there was never any chance of a different result. Again, though you keep ignoring it, Lancelot's full name carved into his tomb while he did not even know his own last name is an example of Providence. There was never any chance, at all, for any other possible result. And yes, you can declare that to be the fiction in the game. The problem is.. we saw you roll the dice. We saw that there WAS another possibility. We saw that there WAS a chance of something else happening. If I am sitting at the table with you, and you insist that the only possible result is the one that just happened... I'd ask if you were okay, because clearly there is another possible result. The game of Fate doesn't countermand this. Dice are still rolled, the results are still random. You keep insisting that just because they are random in game does not mean they are "random" in-fiction. Which might be true, but that is subtly different than it being Providence or the Will of the Gods. Sure, I can roll that an NPC has a love of dancing, and then I can back-fill why that is, so that their love of dancing isn't "random" but a feature of their continuing narrative. But I cannot say that I planned from the beginning for the party to meet this Dancer. I didn't. It wasn't planned, it was not inevitable. Even your example of Thurgon fails this, because when you first mentioned that event, you indicated that the roll could have failed. So you cannot tell me that it was never possible in the fiction for any other result to happen, because you ALSO told me that another result was possible. And, as a reader/player/watcher the moment I know that there was more than one possible path, then I know there was no Providence at play./////////The worst part of this entire tangent though, is how pointless it is. Because at the end of the day, even if I believed DnD could accurately portray a story of Providence.... those are actually the ABSOLUTE WORST stories for Paladins. Again, the entire conception of Providence is that there is a Divine, Immutable, Unchanging, perfect plan. That everything that will happen is written down and will happen exactly as foretold. Meaning the Paladin's faith... is rather pointless. The Paladin's faith itself was planned. Their reaction in their darkest hour where they renewed their faith was planned. Their great victory was planned. It was all planned aeons before the Paladin was born, and was always going to happen in that exact same manner, regardless of anything else. They are a puppet on the stage. The Paladin who knows that their task will succeed, because it was destined to succeed, needs nothing. The Paladin who does not know their task will succeed, who looks at Evil, and knows even their god cannot be sure they will conquer it... needs so much more conviction and character. True faith, not that there is a plan that will make sure everything is all right, but that doing the right thing is worth doing. That even in the face of unrelenting odds, it is worthy to stand forth and for your convictions. Uncertainty makes these tales more impactful, because it means you took a risk, rather than were constantly held safe and forever unable to alter or change anything.</blockquote>

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