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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9370261" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>It isn't a matter of authorship, it is a matter of readership. My character may not have seen the dice in the heavens, but the fiction does not exist within my character's mind. It exists within MY mind. And I cannot build a story that I take seriously as "pre-destined" while factually knowing that NONE of it was pre-destined. Because it feels exactly like engaging with 40K's machine spirits and declaring that they are angry with me for not performing the rites with the sacred oils, when I KNOW because the subtext makes it clear, that the real issue is that machines need maintenance and oil, and the characters have simply layered religious significance on top of basic maintenance because they are too ignorant of how it works to do anything else. </p><p></p><p>I am not sure how many different ways I can try and explain that just because you have a character declare something, doesn't make it actually true. Even if you are a player, just declaring something about the fiction at the table doesn't make it true. See any time the party is in a crime drama, declares they know who the culprit is AND IS WRONG. Even if they never agreed that they would all be wrong.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I don't believe it can be. Just like I don't think I could play the part of a murder-mystery, pretending to find clues, if I was told who did it, where they did it, and how they did it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is rude beyond the pale. How dare you. Just because I disagree with how one can form narratives in a shared fiction setting does not mean I have a frickin' god complex you insufferable person.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>ANd the exact nature of that is being negotiated, which means it was vague. Stories of Providence as written by medieval scholars or by modern day religious writers ARE NOT VAGUE. They don't get bargained away from what they wanted to happen. They don't roll dice to see if they get their way. It is a fundamentally different type of story.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, as a consumer of the fiction, I see behind the curtain and know that it isn't true. That ruins the entire point of the story. I can't buy in to the fact that it was all fated to happen, when I know as the consumer of the story that that is a lie. </p><p></p><p>It is like believing the main character of a show really did die in episode three of season 1... when there are seven more seasons with their face plastered all over it. You know that they didn't die. You can't be tricked into believing they did. No matter how much in the fiction everyone believes they are dead and gone forever, you know that isn't what is going on.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But the PC has a highly limited viewpoint ANYWAYS. To them, the spell ended and the paladin just went off about it being the will of the goddess... and they have no way to prove or disprove that. Just like if someone watched a statue get struck by lightning and declared it was a sign from the heavens... we have no way to tell if it was, or it wasn't. And so we could react with skepticism. </p><p></p><p>But you seem to want to insist that just because your character declared that they believed it was true, it was therefore true and everyone must accept it, because you said it was true. Which is almost hilarious, because you keep talking about shared authorship, then indicating that your authorship was the only one that could possibly matter. If I disagree with your authorship, then as another player, we suddenly have a disconnect in the fiction, and only one version is actually true. Because it is one story, not everyone's individual alternate realities. </p><p></p><p>But of course, I'm supposedly the one with the God Complex, according to you.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 9370261, member: 6801228"] It isn't a matter of authorship, it is a matter of readership. My character may not have seen the dice in the heavens, but the fiction does not exist within my character's mind. It exists within MY mind. And I cannot build a story that I take seriously as "pre-destined" while factually knowing that NONE of it was pre-destined. Because it feels exactly like engaging with 40K's machine spirits and declaring that they are angry with me for not performing the rites with the sacred oils, when I KNOW because the subtext makes it clear, that the real issue is that machines need maintenance and oil, and the characters have simply layered religious significance on top of basic maintenance because they are too ignorant of how it works to do anything else. I am not sure how many different ways I can try and explain that just because you have a character declare something, doesn't make it actually true. Even if you are a player, just declaring something about the fiction at the table doesn't make it true. See any time the party is in a crime drama, declares they know who the culprit is AND IS WRONG. Even if they never agreed that they would all be wrong. No, I don't believe it can be. Just like I don't think I could play the part of a murder-mystery, pretending to find clues, if I was told who did it, where they did it, and how they did it. This is rude beyond the pale. How dare you. Just because I disagree with how one can form narratives in a shared fiction setting does not mean I have a frickin' god complex you insufferable person. ANd the exact nature of that is being negotiated, which means it was vague. Stories of Providence as written by medieval scholars or by modern day religious writers ARE NOT VAGUE. They don't get bargained away from what they wanted to happen. They don't roll dice to see if they get their way. It is a fundamentally different type of story. Again, as a consumer of the fiction, I see behind the curtain and know that it isn't true. That ruins the entire point of the story. I can't buy in to the fact that it was all fated to happen, when I know as the consumer of the story that that is a lie. It is like believing the main character of a show really did die in episode three of season 1... when there are seven more seasons with their face plastered all over it. You know that they didn't die. You can't be tricked into believing they did. No matter how much in the fiction everyone believes they are dead and gone forever, you know that isn't what is going on. But the PC has a highly limited viewpoint ANYWAYS. To them, the spell ended and the paladin just went off about it being the will of the goddess... and they have no way to prove or disprove that. Just like if someone watched a statue get struck by lightning and declared it was a sign from the heavens... we have no way to tell if it was, or it wasn't. And so we could react with skepticism. But you seem to want to insist that just because your character declared that they believed it was true, it was therefore true and everyone must accept it, because you said it was true. Which is almost hilarious, because you keep talking about shared authorship, then indicating that your authorship was the only one that could possibly matter. If I disagree with your authorship, then as another player, we suddenly have a disconnect in the fiction, and only one version is actually true. Because it is one story, not everyone's individual alternate realities. But of course, I'm supposedly the one with the God Complex, according to you. [/QUOTE]
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