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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shemeska" data-source="post: 2855600" data-attributes="member: 11697">CR 25-40 avatars, but the archfiends themselves being wholly without stats. If they absolutely must have stats, those stats must be equivalent to or situationally better than those of deities. Yugoloths carved Khin-Oin from the spine of a deity they killed, they also forced true deities out of active involvement in the Blood War, Prince Levistus is shrinking the size of Set's deific domain in a protracted war, and Asmodeus forced Gruumsh and Maglubiyet out of Avernus and into Acheron. But no... God forbid we make them higher than a CR 2X because then billy and bobby and suzy won't be able to kill them and take their stuff when they have 20th level PCs. God forbid we have stats that match the flavor text and lore. God forbid we have cosmological consistency as any sort of primary design criteria.Pinning Archfiends at CR 19-22 or so, barely above the level of a Balor, intentionally watering them down so people can kill them easily is sad. If there's no acknowledgement that the stats are in fact intentionally watered down, or that such beings stats at that level don't accurately represent beings who are physical manifestations of their own alignments, who in many cases predate the deities, whose will warps and defines entire infinite stretches of reality, and provide mention of how to handle such rather than just having them as barely above balors with a few hit dice ... then I'm sorry but someone dropped the ball during development or editing and they've set themselves up as a metaphorical fig tree in need of a dose of withering.When the primary, and widespread, criticism of the BoVD in that it made its archfiends too weak for the position they occupy and what they're defined as, doesn't appear to have even been a major concern, and even more so they went further in that direction, there's a serious disconnect here.At least the stats don't represent a majority of the book, but just a small portion of it. The remainder of the book should be well written, so I have that as solace, and I still have Faces of Evil when all is said and done.</blockquote>

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