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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kain Darkwind" data-source="post: 2855717" data-attributes="member: 23011">I'm sort of in Shemeska's camp, although I do believe such things as 'concepts' can be killed.  I believe gods can die, and mythology agrees with me.  I believe cosmic entities such as demon princes can die, and Orcus agrees with me.To me, Shem summed it up perfectly when she was irked about bobby and suzy killing Asmodeus at 20th level and taking their stuff.  What kind of half arsed crap is that?If "lower level CRs are needed because they are more useful to the general population of DnD", then why isn't Elminster a 20th level wizard?  Or better still, a 10th level wizard, after all, 15th level parties shouldn't feel bad because he can beat them.  If Demogorgon can't tame one lousy great wyrm, how does he keep hordes of 60HD balors from destroying him?  Or, after FC1 revises his 39HD to 27, how does he keep a couple of angry regular balors from pounding him into paste?  Now, I can see making a non-unique creature at a variable level.  I can see why CR 70 standard demons aren't going to be very useful, and it would be better to offer ways to advance a CR 20 to that level of power.  I can see that, and accept it.A unique creature on the other hand, should not be subject to those whims.  If you want CR 20 demons, then you should have AT LEAST CR 30 demon lords.  These are unique creatures.  Singular.  Not monsters, characters.  Elminster and Szass Tam don't have to put up with this rape of their stats, why are planar monsters always subject to it?  And for that matter, why shouldn't 20th level characters be capable of killing Grummsh, Heronious and Mystra?  After all, the 60HD stats they give in DDg and F&P are going to be very little use to most players.In short, it is foolish.Now, I work with Dicefreaks (I'm the mod who showed Kurtlemak giving his spear to a 1st level kobold to wack Asmodeus with) and I agree with a high level of power for demon princes and lords.  I also have my own personal thread there where I've done my images of their stats....Demogorgon is 70HD, Asmodeus is 54HD, and you can work your way down from there.  I believe the gods are killable, I believe the cosmic entities are killable, but I sure as hell don't think it should be simple.  Not 20th level simple, and not 30th level simple.  I wish to G-D that the designers of WotC's works could get that through their heads.  But of course they don't need to, when they can just keep pushing the crack and we keep buying it.</blockquote>

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