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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Knight Otu" data-source="post: 2855754" data-attributes="member: 192">I think it is a good idea to have the baseline stats be created in a way that the Demon Lords could be challengeable 'in a vacuum*' by a group that has no desire to advance beyond level 20. In theory (according to the DMG), this includes CRs from 20 to 27.Flavor-wise, a Demon Lord (or any kind of Planar Ruler, really) should have no problems controlling his typical subjects. That may be from pure flavor, including brains ("he is the only thing that unites us against the demons next door"), physical might ("DR or not, I'll squish you puny creature into a bloody pulp"), immunity against his subjects' attacks ("sorry, Mr. Balor, but Juiblex has no head to be vorpalled off"), or a special ability allowing that control (l"ook deep into my eyes"). It should be noted, though, that creatures like balors and mariliths are not necessarily typical subjects, and not every demon lord will have such powerful demons under his control. Those demon lords might actually be weaker than these demons, holding off attacks by their rivals who do in other ways.* Obviously, they don't exist in a vacuum, they exist in a plane full of demons, several of which are loyal to them. Regardless of whether Demogorgon is CR 30, 23, or 70, in a well-played game, one doesn't simply walk up to him and rolls initiative.</blockquote>