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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kain Darkwind" data-source="post: 2855845" data-attributes="member: 23011">I don't judge play styles, and I don't care for you suggesting that I do.  I am judging a design style, catering to a particular play style and not the others.  And from a design perspective, it is stupidity to make a specific NPC weaker so that some people can fight them.  It is a poor, short sighted concept.  I don't mind hack and slashers, I don't mind intensive role play, I don't mind those who stop their campaigns at 20th level and those that extend on to 100th level.  I'm not debating the merits of a singular playstyle.But if Elminster is 35th level, he's 35th level.  I'm not going to lower him for my campaign because the PCs can't beat him.  I'm not going to raise him for my campaign because the PCs can beat him.  Unless the man gains some levels (and this could be throughout the campaign) he is 35th level.  I'm not obligated to change it around because of different play styles.I'm not sure that your responding to anything relevant.  Did I suggest that everyone agrees with me?  I was qualifying my support of Shemeska's ideas with my exceptions to those of hers.Right.  Crap excuse number 1.  We have a specific NPC.  That doesn't change if you are in Eberron, Forgotten Realms or regular old DnD.  If you are speaking with an NPC, say the king of some country, does his level change throughout that conversation?  If a 20th level party walks into his castle, and he was only 7th level before, should he jump up to 25th?  Generic DnD, of course.  The thought that "FC is generic" is not an excuse for poor design concepts.I'll assume you meant DF not DC.  And I'll point out again, these are specifc entities.  Not creatures but CHARACTERS.  They don't deserve to have a drop in power because your campaign wants to beat them at 16th level.  And if you think they do, why don't you hold the same opinion of Zeus?  Thor?  The tarrasque?  When someone can give me a solid reason for a CR 5 tarrasque, I'll listen to reasons for CR 19 demon lords.I'm not saying you need the stats that DF has.  But I am saying you need to keep a proper scale.  If you have balors, which are powerful, sub-demon lord status, demons at CR 20, it stands to reason that the minimum CR of a demon lord would be CR 21.  As in, more powerful than the typical demons.  In the Abyss however, you have demons that are potentially CR 41.  (60 HD balor)  At double advancement, a marilith is CR 26, a balor is CR 30.  Something is VERY wrong with having demon lords under those levels.  Again, these are specific NPCs.  The 'needs of your game' don't apply.  Unless you are also petitioning for a Hextor, Tiamat and Hercules that your players can beat too?</blockquote>

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