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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kain Darkwind" data-source="post: 2855914" data-attributes="member: 23011">And here's the coup de grace.  Demons are scalable from CR 1.  Manes, dretch, etc.  They all exist at the lower rungs of the demon ladder.  If you want low level demon encounters, use low level demons.  If you want mid level encounters, use vrocks and hezrou.  If you want high level encounters, use marilith and balor.  And if you want high epic level encounters, you should use demon lords.The absolute sliding scale idea doesn't work.  You can't have CR 1 great wyrms and you can't have CR 1 balors.  Or demon lords.  The flavor given to these creatures is just as important as the stats.  You can't have a description of awesome power and then ability scores of 5-9 and 2 HD.  Because if that is the case, there is no reason to bother playing the game...the game's mechanics are supposed to interpret a world, and make it come alive.  Not twist the laws of reality so that you can more comfortably play.If DnD tells you that a Jump check DC 40 is required to jump a bridge 40 feet wide, and your players can't do that, do you just change the DC to 10?  And if you do, then WHY?  The entire system is set up with a comprehensive power level...somethings are not meant to be done before a certain level.  That's part of the fun of the game, it installs a sense of ambition.  No one (other than very young children) likes to play a game where everything is just handed to them...that's not a game, that's 'let's pretend'.  And that is certainly not what DnD was based on, in any of its incarnations.Demon Lords need to be more powerful than balors.  Demon Princes should be more powerful than Demon Lords.  And regardless of your game, their power level shouldn't be dropped to accomodate the lowest common denominator.  There are other ways you can let your PCs at 16th level beat Demogorgon, if you want that to be possible, without ruining Demogorgon's power level....the power level of his flavor.  A few include, circumstances (Deus ex Machina) reducing his available power level, awesomely powered artifacts, high level aid, etc.  But that doesn't change that Demogorgon, who has ruled the Abyss for millenia, should have more than 27HD, should ideally pose a greater threat than a great wyrm dragon, should be a real threat.  Situational modifiers can make him available to be beaten at 5th level, if that is the playstyle you wish to have.  Not his 'standard' stats.</blockquote>

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