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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kain Darkwind" data-source="post: 2855986" data-attributes="member: 23011">Ok...so you what you are advocating is that the FLAVOR of all monsters and such be reduced to 20th level as well.  So that the powerful dragons should NOT be written as more powerful than CR 20 (with advancement allowing those who wish to play epic to use dragons in their campaigns as well)Totally don't agree with you, but this seems to make more sense than a metagame reasoning behind reducing stats.  I think it would be difficult to create a believable world or cosmos with that design philosophy, especially when it comes to gods and such.  20 levels can't really fit EVERY thing in, not using the DnD 3.5 system.From my understanding of the information, the stats are presented as if they were the real deal.  (And will probably be what is used at the end of the upcoming Dungeon Adventure Path with Demogorgon)  Other people, who have disagreed with the low base-line, have offered the idea that the stats only reflect an aspect of the archfiend, and that the real one would be advanced more.  That's a good idea, and I respect that.  What I don't agree with, is labeling these low baselines as the actual stats, and that IS how the book presents it.  Not as aspects, not as minor avatars, but as the real deal.Heh.  In 1e, Demogorgon had 200 hp.  Thor had somewhere around 300.  In 3.5 edition, Thor has 60HD, and Demogorgon doesn't even hit 30.Again, I'm not dumping on play styles, I'm dumping on design styles.  If you want to play the game with a 5HD demogorgon, that's cool.  But I'd like to know how you can justify your campaign world's flavor.  Does this 5HD Demogorgon have the same history as the one from DnD?  Do 20HD balors still exist, subservient to him?  Are demons still chaotic evil and constantly challenge the rule of this being, who puts them in their place time and again?Play style is one thing, and that differs from group to group.  But world building is the same as a story, and you can't have a half-arsed suspension of disbelief in a good book.  It is a story's job to make you believe, and an internal consistancy is needed.  Same with a cosmos, a world, a campaign setting.  If you give me a book that says a balor is CR 20, and some specimens reach CR 41, and another book saying that a demon prince rules balors, I'm going to expect something capable of pimping the CR 20s, and at the very least, holding its own against the CR 41s.  If you hand me something showing me that the demon prince is CR 19, and weaker than a balor, I'm going to ask why.  I'm going to ask for justification.  And when I know that justification is not coming, I'm going to decry the idea as half-baked.Everything tangible in the entire world is a mechanic.  Only intangibles like personality aren't covered.  An owlbear has a certain baseline.  A bear does.  A bridge.  Whether you use those mechanics to run from it, kill it, or conquer it, the mechanics are what allow you to do so.  Changing the mechanics of a Jump check is the same as changing the mechanics of a bugbear.Even moreso, because I'm using you in a generalized sense.  When did everyone become so sensitive and tremble lipped over someone saying "you do this"?  I am speaking from a design perspective.  'You' refers to the designers.  Dry your eyes, I'm not coming over to police your games. Touche.  I could respond with "HE DOES IN MY WORLD!!!!  DON'T TELL ME HOW TO RUN MY GAME!!!!!".  But that would be hypocritical.  Abysm then.  The ruler of Abysm.Which is why we have these delightful conversations and debates about how powerful they should be.  But that's a flavor perspective.  I'm not attacking the idea of advancing them perse.  I'm attacking the idea of suggesting that their baseline of CR 19-23 is appropriate for them in ANY cosmos where they don't get gangbanged by balors on a constant basis.</blockquote>

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