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Message: <blockquote data-quote="coyote6" data-source="post: 2856027" data-attributes="member: 1225">I said, "stats that ~20th-21st level PCs can challenge" -- notice that there are no CR values mentioned there; I certainly didn't say "CR 20-21 stats" or anything like that. I also said CR 30+ aren't very useful for me -- because I reckon that CR 30+ aren't things that level 20-21 PCs can tackle with any realistic chance of success*. A CR 27 great wyrm is not CR 30+ -- that's self-evident, isn't it? Thus, I never excluded great wyrms as possible ending villains (which would have been very silly and contradictory of me, given how I expect one of my current campaigns to end).A battle against a CR 27 Demogorgon could very well be a viable epic ending for a campaign of mine; it would depend on the specific stats (of both the creature and the PCs), I imagine. Not all CR 27s are the same, and a group of PCs can have capabilities that make a particular threat more-or-less threatening than it would be to another group of PCs (e.g., a group with an undead-turning-optimized cleric with the Sun domain will likely find a battle against a powerful vampire or the like much easier than a group without all the turning power); IME, this effect can be stronger at higher levels.*(Or without a lot of outside factors that favor the PCs, which would make it a lower EL encounter; perhaps I should say "EL" rather than "CR"?)</blockquote>