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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ruleslawyer" data-source="post: 2857436" data-attributes="member: 1757">Simply untrue on all counts. The 1e situation was as follows:1) Deities had better stats that archfiends. So did solars. (Rip, you can talk about theoretical lower limits to divine stats all you want, but the fact is that there IS a theoretical lower limit. It's represented by Lolth.)2) EGG and Ed Greenwood proposed moving the goblin, orc, and kobold pantheons out of the Nine Hells in order to avoid the question of "why don't these deities rule the Hells themselves?", NOT because of some in-game story reason that the archfiends had kicked them out.3) As to "slapping the deities around":How many yugoloths? And what power of deity? It's not like the yugoloth race couldn't field a force capable of taking down a true god, whatever the stats for the top yugoloth bosses are.Never heard of this. Chapter and verse, please.That's Dicefreaks canon, AFAICT. I don't see any evidence for it in WotC material.Again, chapter and verse. Planes of Law rather clearly states that the goblin pantheon is "long established on Acheron," while the orcish pantheon has moved from Gehenna to the Hells to Acheron. That doesn't imply Asmodeus forcing Gruumsh to do anything.Certainly, both the 1e MotP and Planes of Chaos note that not many deities settle in the Abyss because "few deities wish to contend with the upstart demon life that inhabits the plane." That hardly sounds like getting slapped around to me.Personally, I can see it going any number of ways. However, I tend to want to give my archfiends good reason to desire deific ascension and to be something apart from true deities (as "canon" clearly suggests). So, I use the following approach. 1) On their home planes, they're treated as having a divine rank of sorts ("cosmic rank": Thanks, Serge, Kain, and  all the 'Freaks!) that allows them to control their planes in a manner analogous to that of true deities. On and off their home planes, they have the ability to resist salient divine abilities and deific powers in a manner appropriate to their relative cosmic rank. 2) In general, the personal power of the archfiends IMC ranges from the mid-20s (the Dukes of Hell and lesser demon lords) to around 50 (the mightiest demon princes). That puts them within the reach of pit fiends, balors, and high-level PCs at the low end, and on par with lesser deities at the high end (and, in any case, Lolth, Demogorgon, etc. are effectively deities anyway). My reasons for this are:a) I don't use HD-advanced fiends. A pit fiend is a pit fiend is a pit fiend; that's the nature of Law. (Balors may vary by a few HD, as well as in size, aspect, and various powers, but that's the nature of Chaos, and they don't always vary upward.) b) I prefer the approach taken in Ed Greenwood's 1e Nine Hells piece, in which there are clearly various rivalries and power plays going on at all levels of the diabolic hierarchy. If the Lords of the Nine are greater powers compared to the pit fiends at the lower end of the nobility, there's hardly the possibility of any power struggle. I prefer a situation in which pit fiends and balors form the lower end of the diabolical/demonic nobility (as they did in 1e), and there's a relatively linear progression upward from there.c) Lesser power status is plenty. Combined with control over the Hosts of the Hells or the hordes of the Abyss, devious politicking, and the "home field advantage," this would allow the archfiends to hold their demesnes in the face of the deities without just putting them right on par with the greater deities, which is something I don't want since deities and archfiends serve different roles IMC. The Hells are expected to tremble at Bane's or Mystra's approach. As to "slaying archfiends and taking their stuff," one could easily make the same argument with statted deities. A campaign that's geared around treating Demogorgon like a big monster with no agenda other than a fencing dummy's can equally be played with Zeus; he's got hit points and Armor Class and everything. That said, I do like archfiends to be within the grasp of fighting for epic-level PCs, with the true deities slightly less so. My PCs/NPCs are unlikely to ever get past 30th level (although I do play past 20th), so while they might be able to face down a Duke of Hell or outfox a demon lord, they still won't be able to take on a demonic paradigm like Demogorgon or a master manipulator like Dispater without divine help.</blockquote>

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