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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gold Roger" data-source="post: 2857439" data-attributes="member: 33904">My closure on the argument:Some things are seriously out of wack and proportion, but the demonlords aren't the problem, they are simply the point where the problem becomes apparent.The actual problem is that there is no real unified measuring stick for power in D&D as is, which, in the light of 3.X design philosophy of modularity and unified guidelines, is a huge failing.The proponents of epic level play may not like it, but epic level play could never be that measuring stick. Epic level play is per definition without limit, it is the very principle of breaking the actual power limit of the game for the fun of it. For every epic power user power levels are defined differently.That means the game has to use it's natural power level as core assumption of power levels. In 3.X that's level twenty. If we use level twenty as standart assumption power level, we have to define if we want beatable archexemplars (archfiends, celestial paragons, Slaadlords, Primus) and indeed even gods. I say yes we do. I mean, this is the game of "kill things and take their stuff" as much as every other game. If don't play it that way (and I don't) and think demon princes and such should be unapproachable by mortals, you don't need stats.So Billy and Sue can kill demogorgon for his phat loot, so what? Let them have some good high school fun. Does that lessen your enjoyment of your own game, where you don't have Billy and Sue, or perhaps five years older Billy and Sue that have by then "risen above such"?I don't think the FC1 aproach is perfect. A mortal shouldn't just go up to a archfiend and slay him, I would have loved to see rules for actually defeating archfiends, which, while still taking a battle, should be more about binding and imprisoning them.The true failing is that some power levels are way out of proportion (true dragons, balor). It's the consequence of lacking guidelines for power level, a truly sad thing.Again, I know that fans of epic level may not like this. I know Shemmeska plays an epic Sigil (the original isn't really epic. Yeah, the factols are level twenty and the duke has even been munchkinned to 19/20, but these guys are pretty much holding the most powerfull positions mortals can get, they are epic in almost every sense of the word, but by original, still at the limit of mortal power),  Spulchrave is well known for his excellent epic level play  and I can certainly simpathise with Razz's love for Naruto/Bleach like "real ultimate power" as a fan of those manga myself. But it just can't be the guideline, for a guideline needs limits. If you break the limit, don't wonder that you're out of limit.</blockquote>

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